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Subject: An essay and a discussion; French air defense 1940.
Hamilcar    7/30/2010 11:41:33 AM
link Why France Fell to the Nazis: The Air Component Before the War By Raul Colon November 4th 2008 After a visit to France in early January 1940, Sir Edmund Ironside, Chief of the British Imperial General Staff, summed up his impressions of the French Army like this: ?I must say that I saw nothing amiss with it on the surface. The Generals are all tired men, if a bit old from our view-point. None of them showed any lack of confidence?Will the Blitzkrieg, when it comes, allow us to rectify things if they are the same? I must say I don?t know. But I say to myself that we must have confidence in the French Army. It?s the only thing in which we can have confidence?All depends on the French Army and we can do nothing about it?. Those were telling words from the top British commander before the start of the Second World War. Unfortunately for the Allies, his fears proved to be right. When Germany finally attacked the West on May 13th 1940 they did it with such a force that caught the Allies by surprise. Fifteen days after the initial attack wave, Belgium capitulated and the combined might of the French Army and British force were defeated time and time again. Maginot Line Between May 26th and June 4th, the bulk of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) and some remaining elements of the French Army were successfully evacuated from the French Channel port city of Dunkirk. On June 10th, the French government relocated its seat of power from Paris. Four days later, the Germans marched victorious into the Parisian streets. On June 22nd, the new French government caved in and signed an humiliating Armistice, ending one of the most lopsided military campaigns in modern times. The immediate aftermath of the defeat saw the emerging of the ?search for scapegoats? syndrome. A syndrome that is still with us today. The questions regarding the fall of France have resonated since the tragic events of May-June 1940. There are many factors why France was mauled so effortlessly by a numerically inferior adversary. Did the French rearmament investment came too late? Was the Army?s combat doctrine too rigid? Did the French and, to an extend, the BEF; lack innovating and refreshing combat ideas; and so on? In the end, the fall of France is viewed as an example of a what disastrous planning and even more poorly execution can lead to. Since the mid 1930s, France main effort to gear up for a possible German attack was rearmament. Since the mid 1920s, because of the country?s misplaced belief that its newly developed Maginot Line (a series of reinforced structures/forts along the common German/French border) would contain the expected German columns, not much effort was put on rearming the French armed forces. This is all that changed during the emerging of Hitler?s Germany in the early 1930s and only by the middle of the decade, did French rearmament be finally given top budgetary priority. But the sad state of all three services (army, navy and the air force) made progression towards rearmament painstaking slow at best. The worst problem was experienced by the air force. The French air force began rearmament in 1934 as part of Plan I, which called for the production of 1,343 new aircraft. Nevertheless, the assembly of such a force was doomed from the beginning. In the mid 1930s, the French aircraft industry was more one of scattered complexes rather than a cohesion structure. One in which up to forty organizations had input in nearly all aspects of aircraft design, development and production. While at the same time competing for those precious newly designated funds. As they originally were setup, France?s aircraft industry was not structured to handle such big orders, thus the structure needed to be altered which would cause further delays in production. Those delays had an adverse effect on the air force?s rearmament effort. Because of them, most of France?s developed aircraft from the late 1930s came through a narrow technological window. One which prevented the newly developed aircraft from achieving its top technological capability thus making them obsolete before they reached operational status. The problem was compounded by the type of airplanes the French government began to order. Plan I called for the construction of multirole air platforms capable of performing as bombers, fighters and reconnaissance aircraft. Instead of building dedicated platforms, the French government invested on various single type planes. Such aircraft were indeed able to carry out, on a pedestrian basis, each of the various types of missions they were called for, but they could not to distinguish themselves in any single one of them. The decision to develop such platforms was a painful compromise between the Army, the newly formed Air Force and the government. Many inside the air force believed, with passion, in Giulio Douhet?s strategic theory which
 
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Hamilcar    Hidden failure mechanisms.   7/30/2010 2:12:43 PM
Wrong doctrine.
 
Two methods.
 
A. In the military sphere, this happens when some dimwitted "expert" comes up with an idea, takes charge of a military organization and acts on his idea without a test program.  In this case we can look at the British Army and their clumsy attempts to apply a cavalry doctrine to mechanized warfare as one example, and look at Monsieur Cot and his attempt to create a strategic air force as the other.
     In the French case, it started as a doctrinal tug of war between the Armee de la Terre, and the Armee de L'Aire, neither one certain as to the capabilities and limits of the other. The dichotomy was further widened by certain idiot civilian managers who could not make up their minds about a national air strategy that was within France's means and stick to it. Air Minister Pierre Cot, taking their bad advice and somewhat the French equivalent of Robert McNamara anyway thoroughly ruined Plan 1 which was actually sensible.  Cot's everything for the bombers program was impractical, but it was his decision. It created three years of chaos and derailed the French program as much as if a German had run it. Cot's idea was that bombers offered the most bang for the Franc and that a fighter bomber force was a waste of francs as they could not possibly stop the German bombers. 
     Instead of gaming the theory and testing the premise, he accepted blind the Douhet doctrine. Never mind that France lacked the technology to produce four engine bombers, he failed to test.  
     Well in 1937, the Germans did the test for France. The AdT was vindicated. The French circled back to where they started, production of a tactical air force.   
b.  Political revaunchism is the other way to generate wrong doctrine. This can take many forms, such as the Dreyfus Syndrome, socialist reactionaryism where an ideology supplants industrial and military common sense, inter-service rivalries, political corruption between the power elite industrialists, the syndicalist labor movement, and the political manager class*. Too often, the choice of  doctrine is then driven by what is convenient for the special interests involved. The creation of a separate air force creates a new bureaucracy and a new officer class with a new political agenda to get in the way of common sense.           
 
Chaos at the top, confusion on the factory floor. The word is mismanagement.    
 
     This is in industry. If the people making airplanes have the government as their main or only customer, then they will either build what the government wants or what they want to sell the government. If the French government keeps changing its mind or doesn't know what it is doing? Why blame industry for this? Why NOT? Given that the American government was in the same fix at that time, and the sterling performances of Pratt and Whitney, Grumman, Boeing, and Ford in that American case, why not blame Dewoitine, Hispano Suiza, and Bloch in the French one?       
     Well you do blame French industry. In France in the 1930s, their air industry was nationalized, and "rationalized" which meant that "socialist" lawyers, and not the "conservative" engineers and factory managers made production decisions and designed or defined the end product. Being as a class, technology idiots and liars by professional conduct, the new political manager class under-invested in machine tools, did not rationalize labor and failed to either fix French technology gaffes like the Hispano Suiza HS 12Y engine ot the underdeveloped HS 404 cannon, or allowed "politically connected" designer incompetents like Marcel Bloch to sell the French government  horrible backward and poorly designed flying deathtraps.         
     
What should have been done?
 
1. Go with your combat experience. France won with a tactical air force in WW I. Plan 1 was based on combat experience. Stick with the plan.
2, Be realistic and use the proven talent pool. France's aeronautical talent was scarce in the first class designer pool. She had no Hortens, Tanks, Heinkels, Douglases, Heinenmanns, Johnsons, or Northrops. She didn't even have a singular genius like R.J. Mitchell or like Mario Castaldi. What she had was a collection of hack incompetents (including Block and Dewoitine) and Raymond Morane, and the Saulnier Brothers who at least were competent managers<
 
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JFKY    OK Herald, How?   7/30/2010 2:41:11 PM
By not building 300 F-22's?  Spare me....
 
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earlm       7/30/2010 2:53:32 PM

How are they supposed to build anything decent without good engines?  Their best bet was to buy P-40s.

 
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doggtag       7/30/2010 3:33:17 PM

How are they supposed to build anything decent without good engines?  Their best bet was to buy P-40s.



I know they operated a number of Hawk 75s (or similar, somewhere along Curtiss' numbering system),
but could they have had a sufficient number of P-40s in service in time for the German invasion?
(not so much to guarantee a complete victory against the Germans, but at least to inflict more losses upon them
and hold off a while longer (days, weeks,..months even?)
until the supportive Allies would've had better time to react
(help France with a better showing than the English alone could "muster" at Dunkirk, etc).
 
I would think that even armed with 4 Browning 50's, the early P40s would've given a better thumping to German aircraft than the ~.30-class rifle caliber MGs common in most French aircraft of the day....
 
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JFKY    Except, according to Wiki,   7/30/2010 3:50:28 PM
The Curtiss Hawk 75, for France, was armed with 4 X 7.5 mm machine guns, rather than 12.7mm Browning.  France is not going to have an extra caliber of machine gun, if it can avoid it, in the supply chain.
 
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JFKY    Except, according to Wiki,   7/30/2010 4:15:18 PM
The Curtiss Hawk 75, for France, was armed with 4 X 7.5 mm machine guns, rather than 12.7mm Browning.  France is not going to have an extra caliber of machine gun, if it can avoid it, in the supply chain.
 
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Hamilcar       7/30/2010 6:23:35 PM

By not building 300 F-22's?  Spare me....

Would you explain that statement which has nothing to do with the main point here, please?

 
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Hamilcar       7/30/2010 7:03:18 PM

earlm

How are they supposed to build anything decent without good engines? Their best bet was to buy P-40s.

Their best bet was to refine the Gnome Rhone Mistral Major and to fix the quality control problems with the Hispano Suiza 12Y and shove those into a refined Dewoitine and Morane Saulnier, as discussed here:

20 20 hindsight....

doggtag

I know they operated a number of Hawk 75s (or similar, somewhere along Curtiss' numbering system),but could they have had a sufficient number of P-40s in service in time for the German invasion? (not so much to guarantee a complete victory against the Germans, but at least to inflict more losses upon them and hold off a while longer (days, weeks,..months even?) until the supportive Allies would've had better time to react (help France with a better showing than the English alone could "muster" at Dunkirk, etc).

Yes. The short version is that the Hawk 75 could be the fighter bomber that the AdA lacked. 

I would think that even armed with 4 Browning 50's, the early P40s would've given a better thumping to German aircraft than the ~.30-class rifle caliber MGs common in most French aircraft of the day....

Why not solve the HS 404 for the wing mount and use that in the Hawk 75 instead of the crappy MACs?

JFKY Except, according to Wiki,

The Curtiss Hawk 75, for France, was armed with 4 X 7.5 mm machine guns, rather than 12.7mm Browning. France is not going to have an extra caliber of machine gun, if it can avoid it, in the supply chain.

And France was not going to give the United States the HS404 cannon (their secret weapon) to fix that, design mistake, so that WE could use it and solve the cannon as a wing mount to install in planes we sold them, as well as used for ourselves. That was another case of French political stupidity (Gallic pride) getting in the way of common sense national survival.
 
=====================================================================================
 
The most basic question when you analyze the root causes of a class set of national disasters  is always the procedural one. How and what do we really need to learn from our historic mistakes so that we don't repeat the bungling that leads to our defeats and disasters?
 
Take the Germans. The lesson they learned was that nnly mad fools or Americans fight six front wars, and can expect to win.
 
In the case of the Americans it is that you don't let Democrat manage or fight the wars, because that leads straight to defeat. You don't let the government sponsor a design or build anything either. (Latest design disasters were the NASA designed ARES rocket and NETFIRES.)     
 
H.
 

 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Earl - P-40's   7/30/2010 7:57:12 PM

Deliveries of the P-40 did not start to the USAAC until June 1940 so they wouldn't have been able to sell any to the French in time for the Battle of France, which started in May that year. In any case when they RAF got the first of theirs in September they evaluated them as completely unsuitable for combat in the European theatre. In particular the first P-40's had no armour or self sealing tanks, so they were considered to be a death trap. They only got sent to North Africa because the Italians were less of a threat than the Germans and because the British were desperate. The P-40B was more survivable in the North African context but the RAF didn't get those until early 1941.

 
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doggtag       7/30/2010 9:04:47 PM

The Curtiss Hawk 75, for France, was armed with 4 X 7.5 mm machine guns, rather than 12.7mm Browning.  France is not going to have an extra caliber of machine gun, if it can avoid it, in the supply chain.


   The Hawk 75 and its siblings were actually of the P-36 lineage (radial engine, for the most part): the actual P-40 design 9w/ liquid cooled V type) came later.
And if late-model P-40s could mount as many as six 50-cals (3/wing, although IIRC ammo count was fairly low, 280-ish rounds per gun), then surely the earlier ones could've handled just two per wing.
 
As to the 20mm's: was there even room?
The Hurricane's wings seemed thicker, enabling later models to carry four 20mm's, but could the Curtiss Hawk series (radial or liquid cooled engines) actually mount/handle them?
 
Wasn't there also some limited use 13.2mm HMGs in French service?
The mitrailleuse de 13.2 mm CA mle 1930
was around back in that timeframe; it could've been adapted for aircraft use.
 
Hey, if the Finns were able to take aircraft along the lines of the Hawks
and mount up to four 50-cal class MGs (2 in cowl, 1 in each wing)
and do well enough for some time against the Russians...(I know somewhere on here several months ago we discussed such WW2 stuff and the Hawks and Buffaloes in Finnish service came up, but bugger-all if I can find it now...),
surely the French similarly could've held a little better versus the Germans than they did.
You'd have thought that being right next door when Spain had its little trouble during the 1930s, France should've been paying a lot more attention to aerial, and armored, warfare.
The Germans certainly did.
 
 
Maybe if the French hadn't been hampered by ineptness in their aero industries and elsewhere,
perhaps the French engines that allowed a 20mm thru the propellor hub could've been mated to the Hawk airframe...?
Workable solution?
(if so, probably just not enough of them in time....but four 13.2mm wing-mounted HMGs would've probably been a lot more ballistically matched to the hub-mounted 20mm than those 7.5mm MGs were....
That would've equivalently been P-38 firepower, even if not as tightly grouped over its effective range...)
 
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