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Subject: Mig-15 v. F-86
RockyMTNClimber    6/13/2010 10:40:31 AM
I think this is one of the more interesting historical aviation stories. At the conclusion of WWII the allies divied up the available German engineers and combined them with talent from their bench to create our first generation of jet powered combat aircraft. This happened just as Ole' Smokin Joe Stalin became frisky and decided he could take over the universe. The net Russian result was an airplane that was fastest in level flight, had the highest combat ceiling of any at the time, and could turn with anything the west had in a horizontal fight. Then, the Mig was produced in numbers that boggled the 1950 mind. When the whistle blew over Korea the US had very few assets in place to hold back the Red Tide. Initial combat fell on the F-80 and what WWII piston aircraft that were still stored in the region. The Mig quickly proved itself a vicious killer of B-29s and it could stay outside of any UN fighter pilot's weapons envelope he wanted to. In spite of this, the F-86 did finally arrive and with it some of the best pilots the world has ever seen. The Sabre Jet established itself as a heat shield against the communist "Faggot" (the NATO code name for the Mig-15) and ran up at least a six to one kill ratio. When we compare today's PAC-FX against western types it would be well that we consider we have not always had the pure performance advantages to keep our side safe. Sometimes we have actually had to settle for lower performance and other factors to prevail against our despotic enemies "inferior" equipment. I think the Mig-15 v. F-86 makes an interesting case study that remains relevant today. Check Six Rocky
 
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gf0012-aust       6/15/2010 5:38:17 PM

Top Gun and its USAF equiv are almost meaningless without giving credit to Red Hat.

one could also make a historical and forensic link between the output given by defectors suich as No Kum Sok and Red hat.



 
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albywan       6/15/2010 6:55:38 PM



Did the Avon Sabre produced at CAC ever see combat? I guess it could probably be considered the definative variant of the F-86.




Only in the ground attack role in Malaya between 1958 and 1960, by which time it was obsolete as a fighter.



Was there any enemy air in the Malaya Emergency?
 
I thought the action was more COIN... very difficult (as we re experiencing today) difficult to counter with aircraft...
 
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RockyMTNClimber    gf   6/15/2010 9:09:16 PM




Yeager wasn't representative of the average pilot. 





No Kum Sok thought that Yeager was "full of himself" - and certainly thought that there were better technical USAF pilots around who were not self promoters....



Not to pick a nit but you brought Yeager into the conversation not me. I merely pointed out that General Boyd quoted Yeager and the assesment team as coming to the conclusion that the Mig15 was close enough in performance to the Sabre that it came down to the pilots in the fight not the technology. The reason that the Sabre did so well "statistically" against the Mig15 was that most of the pilots the Reds sent up were barely competent to fly as challenging an aircraft as the Mig. 
 
Where the Sabre was a sweet-heart to fly the Mig was more like our F-104 eventually was. Very challenging.
 
CheckSix
 
Rocky
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Herald reply....   6/15/2010 9:16:53 PM
As you can see, the F-86 can readily out-turn the Mig but cannot out-climb it.
 
H.
I'd like the link if you could. I'd like to see if there is data above FL200. The Mig's general advantages in speed and power faded below 20,000 according to the veterans of "mig Alley". Migs there-fore didn't generally fight at 6,100 meters if they had any option.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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gf0012-aust       6/15/2010 9:32:45 PM


Not to pick a nit but you brought Yeager into the conversation not me. I merely pointed out that General Boyd quoted Yeager and the assesment team as coming to the conclusion that the Mig15 was close enough in performance to the Sabre that it came down to the pilots in the fight not the technology. The reason that the Sabre did so well "statistically" against the Mig15 was that most of the pilots the Reds sent up were barely competent to fly as challenging an aircraft as the Mig. 

Where the Sabre was a sweet-heart to fly the Mig was more like our F-104 eventually was. Very challenging.
CheckSix
 

Rocky

I've actually lost track of the conversation now, but, I wasn't nit picking re yeager - outside of the fact that the mans ego was the size of alpha centauri ..... and there were better technicians about....

 
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Hamilcar    Sorry Rocky   6/15/2010 9:53:14 PM

As you can see, the F-86 can readily out-turn the Mig but cannot out-climb it.

 

H.


I'd like the link if you could. I'd like to see if there is data above FL200. The Mig's general advantages in speed and power faded below 20,000 according to the veterans of "mig Alley". Migs there-fore didn't generally fight at 6,100 meters if they had any option.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky

I pulled that from  computer files from I gathered some while back. I have no idea where you would find the originals except that those were e-numbers charts generated for low altitude comparison for some stupid project that involved this very comparison.
 
H.
  .  
 
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Hamilcar    On the other hand I dug this up when people started about the Phantom.   6/15/2010 10:13:31 PM
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6283/f4versusmig21.jpg" height="500" width="800" />
 
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duplex       6/17/2010 10:00:05 AM
The Sabre RAPED  the MiG-15! The Russians claimed their total on paper. The USAF claimed their total with gun camera footage and eyewitness accounts. 

Remember McConnell, Jabara, Davis, Risner, Whisner, Kincheloe, Blesse, Olds, Fernandez, and Gabreski? You either do, or you should. 

There were 4 Soviet and 4 Chinese military advisors who became aces in Korea. There were 40, yes FORTY Americans who became aces in Korea. No Bravo Sierra. The  evidence is real. 
 
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maruben    Please supply any evidence that the information bellow is BS. Thanks in advance.   6/17/2010 11:16:22 AM
 
Please supply any evidence that the information bellow is BS. Thanks in advance.

The Top Russian MiG-15 Aces of Korean War:

Top Russian Aces Kills (*) Comments Medal (**) Unit
Nikolai V. Sutyagin 21 (12) 9 F-86s, 1 F-84, 1 Meteor. Shot-up Glenn Eagleston HSU 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Yevgeni G. Pepelyayev 19 (12) shot down F-86A #49-1319, brought to USSR HSU CO of 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Lev Kirilovich Shchukin 17 (10) shot-up the F-86E of Francis Gabreski, downed 2 times  HSU 18 GIAP, 303 IAD
Sergei M. Kramarenko 13 (7) shot down 5 F-86s, 1 F-84 and 1 Meteor, downed once HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Ivan V. Suchkov 12 (2) 2 B-29s HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Stepan A. Bahayev 11 (5) - HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Konstantin N. Sheberstov 11 (2) 1 B-29A, 1 F-86A HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii U. Ohay 11 (3) 2 Meteors, 1 F-80C HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Mikhail S. Ponomaryev 11 (2) - HSU 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Dmitri A. Samoylov 10 (4) 3 F-86s, 1 B-29 conf. by USAF HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Pavel S. Milaushkin 10 (2) 1 F-86, 1 B-29 conf. by USAF HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Dmitri P. Oskin 9 (2) 2 B-29s on Oct 23 '51 HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Mikhail I. Mihin 9 (3) all F-86E/Fs - 518 IAP, 216 IAD
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Hamilcar    The UN numbers are most definte and true, the others are in (some) dispute.    6/17/2010 11:39:09 AM

 

Please supply any evidence that the information bellow is BS. Thanks in advance.


The Top Russian MiG-15 Aces of Korean War:





































































Top Russian Aces Kills (*) Comments Medal (**) Unit
Nikolai V. Sutyagin 21 (12) 9 F-86s, 1 F-84, 1 Meteor. Shot-up Glenn Eagleston HSU 17 IAP, 303 IAD
Yevgeni G. Pepelyayev 19 (12) shot down F-86A #49-1319, brought to USSR HSU CO of 196 IAP, 324 IAD
Lev Kirilovich Shchukin 17 (10) shot-up the F-86E of Francis Gabreski, downed 2 times  HSU 18 GIAP, 303 IAD
Sergei M. Kramarenko 13 (7) shot down 5 F-86s, 1 F-84 and 1 Meteor, downed once HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Ivan V. Suchkov 12 (2) 2 B-29s HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Stepan A. Bahayev 11 (5) - HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Konstantin N. Sheberstov 11 (2) 1 B-29A, 1 F-86A HSU 176 GIAP, 324 IAD
Grigorii U. Ohay 11 (3) 2 Meteors, 1 F-80C HSU 523 IAP, 303 IAD
Mikhail S. Ponomaryev 11 (2)
 
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