How to Kill the Joint Strike Fighter

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Rufus 3/4/2010 2:56:52 PM

Well, there goes ten minutes I will never get back.

I love reading the musing of clueless idiots on topics they clearly don't understand. (I am looking at you French Stratege...)

Just a few examples for this guy's blog...

"This gets to the second argument against the program, and one which Boeing has been cautiously advancing so far. The JSF is just not militarily vital. Several years ago, I asked the head of strategy at a European aircraft manufacturer why his company had no obvious plans for a fighter beyond the current model. ?All our customers,? he said, ?have enough fighters for chasing Cessnas for the next fifty years.? The next generation of unmanned strike aircraft is alluring, but the air sovereignty mission is just not so compelling... today. For frankly, there?s just no threat anywhere that calls for such a huge fleet of land-based fighter aircraft. "

I can't argue with the idea that if all you are concerned about is chasing the occasional Cessna around you don't need the F-35. You don't even need a Gripen... you can just buy an armed trainer and go with that.

Of course anybody who isn't living in fantasy land knows that our CURRENT land based fighter aircraft are hardly short on things to do.

"Worst of all, the F-35 definitely fails to address the biggest deficiency in combat aviation today: electronic warfare. There?s no plan yet for an EF-35, and the idea of mating jamming pods to a stealthy airframe could be a little strange. Besides, as Shalal-Esa of Reuters noted, the FY11 budget has more EF-18G Growlers because ?military commanders considered them an urgent need.? The JSF? Not so much. "

First off, there ARE plans to develop an EW variant of the F-35, but even if there were no EW version of the F-35 being considered it is hardly as if there are EW versions of any of the aircraft it is slated to replace. You don't replace many hundreds of F-16s, A-10s, Harriers, original Hornets etc etc with dedicated EW aircraft.

"Of course, the F-35C—the tailhook shipboard version—could be very helpful, but that aircraft is said to have significant structural problems at this late stage in the game."

I suppose he is referring to this "significant structural problems":

Engineers in July discovered a ?strength shortfall? in an aluminum structure in the aircraft?s center fuselage that helps absorb stresses during a catapult takeoff, Lockheed spokesman John Kent... said today in an e-mailed statement.

?U.S. Navy and program office engineers were apprised immediately and have been directly involved in approving design updates,? Kent said. ?A modification is already approved and ready to incorporate early this year prior to any catapult testing planned for 2011.?

The modification doesn?t affect the aircraft?s progress toward first flight and is expected to have ?little or no impact? on the plane?s shipboard testing, he said.

?There was never a problem with landing -- only catapult launch,? Kent said.

h*tp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6gq84TiIFcA&pos=9%20#f-35%20#aviation%20#JSF

So much for that...

"Still, as the Royal Navy and the US Marines know, there is more than one way to send fighter aircraft to sea. It may be useful for Lockheed?s opponents to concede the value of the F-35B as a short takeoff, vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft. If crassly, it?s the one variant that directly offends neither the American (Boeing) nor European (Saab, Dassault, EADS) branches of any anti-Lockheed coalition."

Who gives a crap if the F-35's competitors are happy about it? Of COURSE Dassault isn't happy about the F-35. It also isn't happy about the F-16, or Eurofighter, or F-15, or Gripen, or any of the other planes that are eating their lunch. Boo hoo... it isn't like anyone is going to ask them their opini

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StobieWan 3/4/2010 6:32:24 PM

I'm interested. Fascinated in fact. What have you let go of? F35 internal weps bay being bad? F35 not having a jammer? F35 not having an export configuration with reduced VLO characteristics? F35 having an IRST which isn't considered obsolescent?

DAS being something that the Rafale doesn't have?

List is endless, but I'm assuming that by posting this latest junk link but not responding to the previous posts that you're rattled and unable to respond.

Ian

Interesting
h*tp://www.jameshasik.com/

Analyst considers a world without the F-35
link...

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Galderio 3/4/2010 10:11:55 PM

There is no EW version of the F-35?

Is there any EW version of any European figthers?

So the Gripen and EF aren't good.

EW is not even a mission for a LO fighter, EW aircrafts will be protectec ao will stay away from direct fire most of the time!

Or they could simply Jam most BVR missiles.

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Galderio 3/4/2010 10:13:30 PM

EW is not even a mission for a LO fighter, EW aircrafts will be protected or will stay away from direct fire most of the time!

Or they could simply Jam most BVR missiles.

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Rufus 3/5/2010 1:04:12 AM

The point is that not only is it stupid for him to suggest that the various JSF program participants should be buying EW aircraft instead of fighters, there are plans to develop the F-35 into an EW aircraft.

F-35 To Become Electronic Attack Aircraft

After years of debate about the future of tactical, airborne electronic attack for the U.S. Air Force and Marine Corps, it appears the F-35 will become the next-generation, digital warfare aircraft for both services.

h*tps://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/aw120108p2.xml&headline=F-35%20To%20Become%20Electronic%20Attack%20Aircraft

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sentinel28a 3/5/2010 3:42:23 PM

Gotta give FS credit...he's persistent and never gives up. We nail him every time on this boards that he posts something, yet he keeps at it. I almost admire him for it. FS, Dassault seriously needs to hire you and put you in charge of Rafale sales worldwide. I think through sheer persistence people would buy Rafales.

Imagine a world without F-35s. Okay, hmm...that might translate to more sales of Rafales, so I can see the appeal to our favorite Rafale fanatic. I can certainly see a lot more Gripen sales, and some more F-16s too, so that doesn't really solve Dassault's problem. After all, Morocco has zero interest in the F-35, and they didn't even consider the Rafale; Brazil's not really keen on the F-35 either, and they're still kicking around if they even want to buy the Rafale.

So yeah, I can imagine a world without F-35s. What scares me is certain members of Congress might be able to as well. At least we have the advantage of having 1) some experience in the field of aviation, 2) military experience of some kind, and 3) IQs higher than Natalie Portman's belt size, so we can realistically debate the points of cancelling/continuing the F-35. I worry that some Congresscritters look at the F-35 and go, "Wow, with all that money I could really score some serious pork!"

As far as the EW debate goes, immaterial. The EF-18G is already in service, and will provide excellent EW capability no matter what happens to the JSF. And moreover, it's in service because the poor EA-6B is simply getting worn out, and the Navy wisely decided not to wait until 2016 or later to replace it. Would that the USAF had as much sense.

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french stratege 3/5/2010 4:13:34 PM

Imagine a world without F-35s. Okay, hmm...that might translate to more sales of Rafales, so I can see the appeal to our favorite Rafale fanatic.

I'm not a Rafale fanatic but I like the concept.

It is France interest to sell some on export market.

I can certainly see a lot more Gripen sales, and some more F-16s too, so that doesn't really solve Dassault's problem. After all, Morocco has zero interest in the F-35, and they didn't even consider the Rafale;

Morocco had interest in the Rafale.At the beginning they wanted it and only it.

However, we destroyed ourselves on this affair which happened during our presidential election.

French Mod DGA made simultaneously an offer with a price different from Dassault.And nobody in french governement took care in time during the election.

Morroco feelt they have been swindled.

USA profited on it and did an offer less than half the price of France per unit , if you consider the 700 million of economic help they grant to Morroco.

Brazil's not really keen on the F-35 either, and they're still kicking around if they even want to buy the Rafale.

We will see.

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gf0012-aust 3/5/2010 4:26:32 PM

EW is not even a mission for a LO fighter, EW aircrafts will be protected or will stay away from direct fire most of the time!

Or they could simply Jam most BVR missiles.

disagree

EW in modern force development is a system of systems event. ie everyone approp geared up in that battlespace is a sensor contributor if not sector manager.

eg growlers are defacto battlespace managers, they can talk to all 3 service environments, "vice vice" versa for the other services.

the days of where a critical EW platform was a big fat converted passenger liner chatting to everyone in comms range has shifted to a greater comms management capability - and where late 4th gen and new 5th gen fighters are just as much contributors to the battlespace tactical development picture as a Rivet Joint and Guardrail was

everyone wired up is an EW contributor.

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french stratege 3/5/2010 5:40:47 PM

I agree with Gf0012

ECM is a matter of numerous systems which are more and more networked;

The main point of 5th generation aircraft is ability detect and attack silently and get total awareness.

Those needs and progress of RWR moved RWR to new technology like interferometric detection allowing also geolocation and transmit of data to the network.

While stand off jamming will still persist, ESM features are more and more distributed.

PS: contrary to what people think, I think that F35 is very ambitious and cuttin edge technology.So bad that architectural choice was bad.

I prefer F35 stay on track as it will not be a competitor to Rafale as F35 is a poor choice for AtoA while having AtoA superiority is a primary target.And only USAF can afford a stealth dedicated air superiority fighter to complement it.

Third party air force will notice it as soon as F35 specifications are known.

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french stratege 3/5/2010 5:55:45 PM

BTW, a new comment:

Rough Week for F-&S203;&S203;35

h*tp://defensetech.org/2010/03...

. Colin quotes a congressional aide: ?You are looking at least $112 million JSFs, with estimates as high as $137 million ? average unit procurement costs.?

Same than F22! LOL

A congressional aide emailed Colin:

?A 13-&S203;&S203;month slip seems very optimistic when press reports today suggest they are already at least 11 months behind the 2008 schedule. How did they get from the JET 30-&S203;&S203;month slip to 13? Maybe I?m too cynical, but this seems overly optimistic. The phrase ?lipstick on a pig? comes to mind. The JSF is still an ugly, stinking pig,?

As a french , I'm neutral.Just laughing.

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