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Subject: 2 Spanish Eurofighter down 8 F-15C at recent exercise
Apokalypse    2/3/2010 3:59:11 PM
Eurofighter's official blog makes an interesting claim today about a recent dissimilar fighter exercise in the Canaries involving Spanish Typhoons and US Air Force F-15s. The blog says: In an interview on the exercise, Major Juan Balesta, the 41-year old Commander of the 111 Squadron stressed that a two-ship formation of Eurofighters involved in a dogfight simulation "against" the F-15s enjoyed full control of the engagement. The Typhoons managed to smash a formation of eight F-15s which had the role of the attacker with the first Eurofighter jet managing to "shoot down" four F-15 fighter jets. The second Eurofighter managed to disable three F-15 jets. Eventually the pilots were using the Eurofighter Typhoon to full capacity and taking advantage of its enormous capabilities. Trump that. This apparently refers to an exercise that ended last March. Who thinks Eurofighter is just trying to compensate for something, like a rumored beat-down by Dassault Rafale's at Al Dhafra? ht*p://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/01/eurofighter-boasts-usaf-f-15-k.html
 
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Apokalypse       2/3/2010 4:01:13 PM
Sorry about the double topic...
 
does anyone know what kind of F-15C we are talking about....radar etc.?
 
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MK       2/3/2010 5:11:25 PM
Wasn't this already covered, though not in a separate thread? Anyway the F-15Cs of the 493rd sqn are equipped with the APG-63(V1), but it doesn't matter anyway as the article suggest that this exercise was WVR only. As long as no details are known the results means nothing as the ROEs may have favoured the Typhoons or not.
 
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DarthAmerica       2/3/2010 10:46:30 PM
Sign...DefProf please forgive me in advance for posting in here but I can't help it...

It's DACT, not WAR. Learn the difference.


-DA 
 
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Rufus       2/4/2010 1:00:34 AM
"does anyone know what kind of F-15C we are talking about....radar etc.?"
 
Probably the "type" that were simulating a third-world air-force as part of a training exercise...
 
Over and over and over again these sorts of reports come out and over and over and over again people try to take them to mean something they just don't.
 
 
At the very least I can tell you that if these 8 F-15s were simulating the "attackers" at least some portion of them would have been playing the part of a strike package.
 
These exercises aren't about: "Hey, lets send up 8 F-15s against two EFers and see who wins!!!11one1"
 

 
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sentinel28a       2/4/2010 5:18:03 PM
For once I'm in agreement with DA.  There's a huge difference between, to paraphrase Han Solo, being good against remotes and good against a living.
 
Besides, I should hope that the Typhoons would do well against F-15Cs, since the Typhoon is a generation and nearly 30 years ahead of the F-15.  It's kind of like crowing that your Nieuport 17 shot down a Bleriot. 
 
And what do they mean by "disable"?  Simulated loss of one engine?  Usually "disabling" a fighter means killing it.
 
 
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earlm    Typhoon ahead of F-15?   2/6/2010 6:33:08 PM
There's no way the EF is a generation ahead of the F-15.  They both fight the same way.  Actually F-15 is more useful because it has more fuel and better radar.  Any small kinematic advantages for EF are outweighed.  So to sum up EF:
 
As expensive or more than F-15.
Not much better in a fanboy internet thread joust scenario and not at all when F-15 has APG-63v2 let alone 3
Less useful in most real world scenarios where things like radar and fuel capacity actually matter
 
 
 
BTW the limit on number of engagements in most cases is fuel not number of AAM's carried.  Any EF advantages in WVR don't really matter when WVR is mutual suicide with HOBS AAM.  I've seen all these EF dominates F-15 threads before.  You'd expect that when 4 countries get together and go all out to build the best they can it would be hands down better than a 30 year older counterpart but it's not.
 
 
 
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MK       2/7/2010 5:27:28 PM

There's no way the EF is a generation ahead of the F-15.  They both fight the same way.  Actually F-15 is more useful because it has more fuel and better radar.  Any small kinematic advantages for EF are outweighed.  So to sum up EF:

 

As expensive or more than F-15.

Not much better in a fanboy internet thread joust scenario and not at all when F-15 has APG-63v2 let alone 3

Less useful in most real world scenarios where things like radar and fuel capacity actually matter

 

 

 

BTW the limit on number of engagements in most cases is fuel not number of AAM's carried.  Any EF advantages in WVR don't really matter when WVR is mutual suicide with HOBS AAM.  I've seen all these EF dominates F-15 threads before.  You'd expect that when 4 countries get together and go all out to build the best they can it would be hands down better than a 30 year older counterpart but it's not.

 

 


That's a little bit oversimplified don't you think so? That the Typhoon doesn't provide the level of superiority of an F-22 is neither new, nor surprising. The radar is of course important, as is range/endurance, but limiting everything to the few fields where the F-15 might actually top the Typhoon is a little bit onesided.  
 
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earlm       2/7/2010 6:13:26 PM
My point is that EF is superior in a few areas but F-15 in others.  It just so happens that F-15 is superior in the areas that count for how both aircraft would be employed in a conflict against a strenuous foe which is pretty much the only thing worth talking about on boards.  An air superiority aircraft is going to be on CAP which requires fuel, both internal and external.  Combat will involve acceleration and speed where EF is superior but the most important part of the combat would involve radar where the F-15 is superior.  EF is not "a generation ahead" of F-15 by any stretch.  They both would fly CAP outside of enemy SAM range and both have to stay outside of the engagement envelope of high quality SAMs while they do their A2A thing.  A generation ahead is an F-22 that penetrates enemy airspace and fights supersonically in a new way.  EF fights the same way F-15 does and doesn't do it as well in the ways that count in the high stress scenario.  It should dominate WVR without HOBS, it should die along with the F-15 in WVR with HOBS.  EF is a good fighter but not anywhere near what it's made out to be on some boards.
 
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MK       2/8/2010 4:41:41 AM
It's true that there is some hype about the Typhoon here or there, but there is also much crap talk from the other side. The F-15 offers a greater range/endurance, which isn't surprising given its size, though most of it comes from the superior external fuel carriage capacity. This in turn has a more negative impact on the aircraft's performance. The AN/APG-63(V3) is certainly going to offer some advantages, wether this is enough to compensate for other shortcomings is the question, particularly if we speak about the F-15C. Typhoon's Captor radar is certainly not bad and enough to detect/track targets at a very long range (of course dependent on target RCS) and this disadvantage is likely to be temporary only until the Typhoon gets an AESA. Particularly the older F-15 models suffer from their dated MMI and inferior level of avionics integration and automation. Its EW gear is less complete and to a certain extend dated, there is no sensor fusion, currently no IRST and the aircraft has a much higher visual signature and RCS.
The Typhoon isn't necessarily fighting in the same way as the F-15, though i won't be to different either. 
 
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gf0012-aust       2/8/2010 5:20:18 AM
Typhoon's Captor radar is certainly not bad and enough to detect/track targets at a very long range (of course dependent on target RCS) and this disadvantage is likely to be temporary only until the Typhoon gets an AESA.
I attended a briefing by a RAF exchange pilot some 15-18months ago.
The gist of the capability brief was that the RAF saw no need to accelerate the replacement of CAPTOR with AESA  before end 2010 as there were no threats capable of challenging a typhoon sporting CAPTOR 
 
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