I'm not degrading F35 even I think it is not an ideal air to air platform for an airforce which have to rely to a single model so much have the best platform they can for AtoA primary.

USA have F22, so F35 is adapted to their requirement.

 

But the ideal F35 for air force like Japan or Israel, would have been a F35A with a bigger wing, a smaller internal bay fro 4 or 6 missiles dedicated for A to A like F22, so a smaller drag, so less fuel needed, so a reduced empty mass, and much better T/W ratio and agility.

An relying on (stealthy) standoff weapons external for A to G or a special air to ground bomb not bigger than the volume of an AMRAAM to be carried internally.

Wich would have been an F22 light / f15 type  and not a multirole fighter /F16 replacement thus defeating the whole point of the project.

And how many more times can it be said the airframes are common therefore  "Stealthiness" will be common accross the fleet,

I am well aware the RAF F35 will be different to the applicable US version- for starters it will be configured for ASRAAM and stormshadow (though I think thats not an IOC) this is not the same as down graded.

 

As for other export models I would not be suprised if some electronic fits were different perhaps at customer request.

 

And France accusing another nation of cutting a customer off at the knees following political disputes is a little bit pot & kettle. Israel - Mirage for example.   In fact French Intransigence on this issue is one of the stumbling blocks for the Rafale - nobody wants to be reliant on french good will for weapons delivery. US (spec) weapons can be bought from just about anyone, its why i say DASSAULT should bite the bullet and pay to integrate sidewinder and amraam- thus increasing sales appeal.

 

PS

Happy new year to all

 

 

 

 

"I'm not degrading F35 even I think it is not an ideal air to air platform for an airforce which have to rely to a single model so much have the best platform they can for AtoA primary."

 

I've got news for you kid... the F-35 is a heck of a lot closer to an "ideal" air-to-air platform than the Rafale is...

 

The Rafale is a mediocre air-to-air performer even by the standards of late 4th generation aircraft when you consider its deficient radar, lack of a helmet mounted sight, short ranged BVR weapon, lack of a towed decoy and mediocre high altitude aerodynamic performance in general.

 

The F-35 has a larger and far more capable radar, a more modern and capable EW suite, a helmet mounted sight, the most capable EO/IRST system in the world, DAS, and of course a radar cross section small enough to allow it to approach within lethal range before its opponent even realizes it is out there.  (Unlike the Rafale which would of course be detected far beyond lethal range by any modern radar.)

 

The Rafale is going to be trying to fight like a standard 4th generation plane.  It is going to go into the fight knowing its opponent will detect it long before it can shoot.  It is going to jockey for position and hopefully destroy its target before eating a missile itself, and if no other options are available it will enter into a WVR fight and hope that it can point its nose at its opponent before the opponent is able to target it.  

 

The F-35 meanwhile will almost certainly hold a massive situational awareness advantage over its opponent.  It will be able to position itself to win the fight before the target knows a fight is about to take place.  In most cases the F-35 will be able to fire before its opponent has even detected the F-35.  Should the F-35 find itself in a visual range fight rather than trying to out turn the enemy it will simply rely on its 360 degree awareness to fire a missile, and go on about its day. 

 

Only in your fanboy universe is the Rafale even in the same discussion with an aircraft like the F-35 which would hold virtually every single possible advantage. 

 

The Rafale is a mediocre air-to-air performer even by the standards of late 4th generation aircraft when you consider its deficient radar, lack of a helmet mounted sight, short ranged BVR weapon, lack of a towed decoy and mediocre high altitude aerodynamic performance in general.

The F-35 has a larger and far more capable radar, a more modern and capable EW suite, a helmet mounted sight, the most capable EO/IRST system in the world, DAS, and of course a radar cross section small enough to allow it to approach within lethal range before its opponent even realizes it is out there.  (Unlike the Rafale which would of course be detected far beyond lethal range by any modern radar.)
Great comparing a 2009 fighter to a 2015 fighter and you mean the Rafale won't be developed even further? Where is the prove for its "best EO/IRST", MUCH more capable EW suite and so much better radar?
The F-35 meanwhile will almost certainly hold a massive situational awareness advantage over its opponent.  It will be able to position itself to win the fight before the target knows a fight is about to take place.  In most cases the F-35 will be able to fire before its opponent has even detected the F-35.  Should the F-35 find itself in a visual range fight rather than trying to out turn the enemy it will simply rely on its 360 degree awareness to fire a missile, and go on about its day. 
When it is available some day and works as advertised. Who knows what else will have been developed by that time for other aircraft.

It's only news to a few people, and they all happen (coincidentally) to be ignorant and french.

High-altitude combat being the most important for A2A engagements, as so many pilots have stated who enjoy the supercruise of F22/Typhoon at HIGH altitudes and manauverability for supersonic merges. The Rafale is not optimised for BVR engagements.

And the radar cross section is small enough to enter within the BVR engagement envelope even when up against FAR more powerful radars than that of the rafail.

No need to say more.

 

 

It's hilarious to me that it's 2010 and people are still debating 2 things. 

1. Outdated Cold War era concepts of air to air combat.

2. The physical characteristics and specifications of the Rafale. 

For fook sake all put a sock in it. YOU WILL NEVER convince FS/BW about this fighter. Their patriotism to their country trumps common sense on this topic. Give it up...

FS/BW,

Look, guys, get a clue okay. The Rafale is a great airplane designed to meet French and export multirole requirements. It's well designed for that purpose if this was say...the late 1980's or 1990's. You know, like when the F/A-18C, F-16 and Mig-29 showed up and started doing what the Rafale does now back then. Bad timing, bad politics and an even worse price point are what beats the Rafale abroad. It is what it is. I can assure you that a design house like Dassault is well beyond the Rafale as they eye the export market for fighters to compete with the F-35. WELL BEYOND. Sure France will continue to upgrade and market the Rafale just as all other 4th gen jets are. Sure the Rafale will remain competitive through the decade. But it is woefully obsolete compared to the state of the art and that's just the honest truth. But do not feel bad. The F-35 makes almost ALL OTHER SMALL TACTICAL COMBAT JETS THAT WAY TOO.

Now please all. A lot more interesting stuff going on these days... 

-DA 

I'am fed up to repeat same points.

Still I will repeat key points:

Rafale is a good performer in altitude and a much better one than F35 and its huge frontal drag (thank to internal carriage) and low wing surface and low T/W ratio.

Its electronic is 5th generation on networking and ESM/RWR with an astonishing less than 1° 3D geolocation, its radar is modern while short ranged in the former PESA version, but close to APG79 in AESA (and better than mechanical Eurofighter Captor), and it will evolve and be close to F35 in 2018 on new features like optronic when only few export F35 will be in service in UK or abroad.

Sure it has not yet HMS for reasons explained and same than F22, i.e marginal need when you have an electronic scan radar and such networking and such manoeuvrability.Even an HMS is available for export.

Its survivability already great with ECM spectra (much better than a conventional towed decoy) plus a low RCS (said in 0,1 m²) , plus stand off weapons like AASM, will evolve toward better capabilities (even lower RCS, better spectra, 9 tons engine) and will cope with those of a F35 which have a much lower RCS(said in 0,01  to 0,002 m²) but no dedicated ECM.

Rafale BVR capabilites are great especially in the 40 km range which is already the NEZ of an amraam C (even on paper an Amraam could shoot at 80 km a non manoeuvering aircraft), thank to passive means like Spectra or Mica IR.

Moreover you can be sure that our aircraft can evolve like F18 when going from F18C to E and that a much better Rafale will appear end of this decade (even its name could change).

 

Rafale F3 is second best after F22 in AtoA above Typhoon, , and best in AtoG today since F35 is not in service.

That is the basic reality as Dutch air force which is a serious air force acknowledge it.

And I'm quite sure it will stay overall better in AtoA than a F35.

 

AT the end Rafale is a good compromise.It could have been better if launched a decade after but can evolve sufficiently to cope with future threat and more than a F18E.

Still, US Navy say that a F18E will cope with future threat for next two decades.

 

On a system engineering view, internal carriage of weapons like on F35 add 30% weight and cost to aircraft airframe for a marginal stealth advantage compare to a similar stealth tech aircraft with appropriate external carriage of stealthy air to air missiles, plus some active ECM.

A similar aircraft without a bomb bay carrying externaly 2 stealthy AAM and 2 stealth bombs, plus ECM would for sure not be disavantaged compared with a F35 carryning internaly 2 AMRAAM and 2 bombs.

Indeed computing power of design tools allow now integration of (few) external stealthy weapons while preserving RCS of basic airframe at very low level,and so without huge weight and T/W penaties of an internal bomb bay.

it is why I doubt seriously of F35 concept and interest for a aircraft which would be unique in some airforces without an F22 to support them.

 

To summarize, yes I'm fed up that qualities of our fighters, armed forces and industry are regarded by some uninformed american with such contempt.

I tried to be fair here without insulting.Honest and informed people would notice.

 

 

DA

I can assure you that a design house like Dassault is well beyond the Rafale as they eye the export market for fighters to compete with the F-35. WELL BEYOND. 
You are right

But it is woefully obsolete compared to the state of the art and that's just the honest truth.

But do not feel bad. The F-35 makes almost ALL OTHER SMALL TACTICAL COMBAT JETS THAT WAY TOO.