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Subject: Japan gearing up to acquire F-35 fighters
maruben    11/22/2009 8:52:52 PM
Japan gearing up to acquire F-35 fighters Stealth jets would replace aging F-4 fleet Kyodo News The Defense Ministry is making arrangements to select the F-35 as Japan's next mainstay fighter jet, sources at the ministry and the Self-Defense Forces said Sunday. Upgrade: The F-35 fighter is a next-generation jet with radar-evading capabilities. KYODO / LOCKHEED MARTIN CORP. The ministry will embark on the full acquisition process in December and prepare to make budgetary requests for the stealth plane in the fiscal 2011 budget, the sources said. The ministry is looking to buy 40 of the next-generation jets, which can evade radar and are estimated to cost about ¥9 billion each. The move apparently means priority has been put on strengthening air-defense capabilities as neighboring China makes efforts to enhance its air force by developing its own next-generation aircraft, analysts said. The ministry, however, may postpone budget requests for the F-35 until fiscal 2012, due to a view in the government that a contract should not be concluded before the jet's actual capabilities can be confirmed. The F-35 is set to be deployed in the mid-2010s. The F-35 is being jointly developed by the United States, Britain, Australia and other countries. Japan is not participating because doing so would conflict with its principle of banning weapons and arms-technology exports. Japan initially wanted to acquire the U.S. F-22 stealth jet to replace its aging collection of F-4EJ fighters, which are still used alongside F-15s and other planes, but the United States prohibits the export of the F-22, and plans to halt production have already been announced. Japan passed on other models, such as the U.S. F/A-18 and F-15FX and the Eurofighter, which is made by a consortium of European manufacturers. The plan to acquire the F-35 is likely to be incorporated in new defense policy guidelines and a medium-term defense buildup plan to be adopted in December 2010. The government led by the Democratic Party of Japan decided in October to delay its adoption by a year, partly to reflect the policies of its coalition partners.
 
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SlowMan       11/23/2009 11:46:16 AM
@ Hamilcar

> You are a waste of time.

Actually it is you who are a waste of EVERYONE's time here.

@ StevoJH

> If there was going to be an Asian Assembly line it would most likely be in Australia

The "Final Assembly & Check" plant, which is comparable to an automotive body shop, costs around $800 million. Australia isn't willing to pay this sum.

> With an order of 40 Aircraft,  Japan is neither.

Japan hosts US Pacific forces, which will obviously have hundreds of F-35s stationed in Japan. This "Final Assembly & Check" plant also doubles as maintenance center, so there is a motivation for the US to put a "Final Assembly & Check" plant in Japan.
 
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Hamilcar       11/23/2009 12:00:30 PM


As I understand it, there will be two assembly lines for the F-35. One in Italy and One in the US. If there was going to be an Asian Assembly line it would most likely be in Australia because:

1) We are a member of the consortium

2) We are ordering a larger number then anyone else in the region

With an order of 40 Aircraft,  Japan is neither.


That does not mean that they will not be a part of the avionics at some point. They will have to be as they transition to their own AAM-3 and AAM-4 as well as the AAM-5.  Then there is ASM-1, 2, and (in development) XASM-3. All of those weapons have to be coded and carried. Its very apparent that the JSDF asserts indigenous manufacture and supply. Has been for at least two decades. 
 
And as I stated, they have tried to build their own jet engines always as soon as they could license and design.. 
 
 
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SlowMan       11/23/2009 12:09:32 PM
@ Hamilcar

> They will have to be as they transition to their own AAM-3 and AAM-4 as well as the AAM-5.

The arrangement is that foreign client pays Lockheed Martin to integrate their weapons into F-35. Source code is off-limit to foreign clients.

> Then there is ASM-1, 2, and (in development) XASM-3. All of those weapons have to be coded and carried.

By Lockheed Martin fore a fee of $$$$$$$$$, of course.

> Its very apparent that the JSDF asserts indigenous manufacture and supply.

If they did, then they would have gone for Typhoon or Boeing options.

In reality, one of Hatoyama's reform agenda is a move away from license production to lower procurement cost, and you are seeing the effect.
 
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Hamilcar       11/23/2009 12:14:05 PM

@ Hamilcar



> They will have to be as they transition to their own AAM-3 and AAM-4 as well as the AAM-5.



The arrangement is that foreign client pays Lockheed Martin to integrate their weapons into F-35. Source code is off-limit to foreign clients.



> Then there is ASM-1, 2, and (in development) XASM-3. All of those weapons have to be coded and carried.



By Lockheed Martin fore a fee of $$$$$$$$$, of course.



> Its very apparent that the JSDF asserts indigenous manufacture and supply.



If they did, then they would have gone for Typhoon or Boeing options.



In reality, one of Hatoyama's reform agenda is a move away from license production to lower procurement cost, and you are seeing the effect.

Hamilcar       11/23/2009 11:20:29 AM
You are a waste of time.
 
Is that CLEAR?

 
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Heorot       11/23/2009 1:30:37 PM
No Herald, YOU are a waste of time (and bandwidth). Go and peddle your xenophobia elsewhere.
 
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Slim Pickinz    @ slowkid   11/23/2009 7:49:15 PM
Slowkid I certainly remember you adamantly stating recently that Hatoyama "hates the US", and that Japan will never buy the F-35. Why all of a sudden is he passing on European and indigenous aircraft projects and pushing for the F-35 now? If he is so anti-American, why disregard Japan's aircraft industry in favor of American aircraft?
 
You need to stick to your assertions or at the very least acknowledge your fanboy status and your that opinions on many things are WRONG.
 
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Hamilcar    Italy has one. Japan wants one.   11/24/2009 12:19:31 AM
 
DATE:22/07/09
SOURCE:Flight International
Japan and Lockheed mull F-35 assembly plant
link key2 key3 key4;nodecode=yes;link link key2 key3 key4;nodecode=yes;link link key2 key3 key4;nodecode=yes;link link /> link key2 key3 key4;nodecode=yes;link link key2 key3 key4;nodecode=yes;link link key2 key3 key4;nodecode=yes;link link swliveconnect="FALSE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="" width="336" height="280">

Lockheed Martin... executives have held initial discussions with Japanese government and defence ministry officials about building an in-country final assembly facility for the F-35... Joint Strike Fighter.

Sources close to Lockheed and the Japanese government say the proposal is similar to the final assembly and check out facility offered to Italy..., and would fulfil Tokyo's wish to have a domestic production capability to support its indigenous industry as part of a next-generation F-X fighter procurement.

 Lockheed Martin
 © Lockheed Martin
Final assembly of the F-35 planned for Japan

While the discussions have been put on hold until after Japan's 30 August general elections, those involved remain confident that they will be able to resume talks even if there is a change of government.

An assembly deal with Japan would need the agreement of the USA's other partners on the JSF programme, who have workshare on the fighter. Lockheed officials believe they can persuade the nations that a large Japanese order would bring down the aircraft's unit cost.

The primary contractor in Japan is likely to be Mitsubishi Heavy Industri..., which already works with Lockheed on the F-2 fighter. It is not cer
 
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sentinel28a       11/24/2009 1:29:02 AM
I agree that 40 F-35s is too small for an assembly plant.  Now if Japan increases its buy, then we'll talk turkey.  I don't think there will be an Asian assembly plant for the F-35 at all.
 
SlowMan, the F-2 may not be a F-16, but it's very close to the F-16's design to call it a variant, much as the F-16XL was not a completely different aircraft despite its thicker spine and much larger wing.  (Too bad that baby never went into service...*sigh*)
 
Hatoyama may be hedging his bets.  Sure, he wants to be BFFs with China and dislikes us--however, his power depends on a coalition, and not everyone in the Diet supports his left-leaning party.  The F-4EJ is already old and approaching the ancient status, and the Shin-Shin (if it enters production and becomes less than an aircraft otaku's dream) will not be ready before the poor old Phantom simply starts falling out of the air.  The F-35 will--in theory--be ready to go by 2014.  The Shin-Shin, if it is indeed the successor to the F-15 and the Japanese version of the F-22, would be a much better replacement for the F-15 than the F-35 would.  That all depends on whether or not it goes into production and if Japan can afford to build it.
 
Don't know if there's any linkage here, but I wonder if this has anything to do with the PRC suddenly talking about building their own F-22?  That might've caused some heads to turn in Tokyo.
 
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sinoflex       11/24/2009 4:14:21 AM

Slowkid I certainly remember you adamantly stating recently that Hatoyama "hates the US", and that Japan will never buy the F-35. Why all of a sudden is he passing on European and indigenous aircraft projects and pushing for the F-35 now? If he is so anti-American, why disregard Japan's aircraft industry in favor of American aircraft?

You need to stick to your assertions or at the very least acknowledge your fanboy status and your that opinions on many things are WRONG.


Yes, very curious.  An export version F-35 vulnerable to AWACs detection, unable to beat off swarms of 5th gen J-xx Chinese fighters and unable to dominate in a Grand Naval showdown with Korea.  I would characterize Slowman's opinings as rather Gumby-like.
 
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Slim Pickinz    correction   11/24/2009 11:00:48 PM




Slowkid I certainly remember you adamantly stating recently that Hatoyama "hates the US", and that Japan will never buy the F-35. Why all of a sudden is he passing on European and indigenous aircraft projects and pushing for the F-35 now? If he is so anti-American, why disregard Japan's aircraft industry in favor of American aircraft?




You need to stick to your assertions or at the very least acknowledge your fanboy status and your that opinions on many things are WRONG.








Yes, very curious.  An export version F-35 vulnerable to AWACs detection, unable to beat off swarms of 5th gen J-xx Chinese fighters and unable to dominate in a Grand Naval showdown with Korea.  I would characterize Slowman's opinings as rather Gumby-like.

 
The "export F-35" is just another myth being perpetuated by Slowkid. It has been stated numerous times by people here who actually know what they're talking about "ie gf", that there will be no difference between the Lightnings delivered to the US and those to the other members of the consortium.
 
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