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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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StobieWan       7/10/2010 8:19:44 PM
Why not go the whole hog and claim the RN cut their buy of the T45 from 12 to 6 on the same basis?
It's about as valid - the French and Italians never intended to buy the numbers you quote and only ever committed to the numbers they actually bought - that's the reason the UK pulled out of the Horizon project -- the French and Italian naval forces wanted workshares that were disproportionate to the intended buy (the UK were looking to buy more than the combined total of the Franco-Italian purchase but the Italians and French wanted workshares based on their maximum intended buy.

You claim they intend to tear out Aster-15 from the Italian carrier but maintain they're cancelling an entirHorizon Project history...e frigate class despite the fact that (as you suggest) it'd be very easy to install ESSM) - these seem to be competing views, and I suspect neither are referenced or sourced. Please provide links that are relevant. Why wouldn't the French or Italian Navies just do what the RN did and test it, discover it wanting and ask for a fix?

And yes of course the Compte would never *rely* on the Aster-15 - in the same sense that none of the CV-N's used by the USN rely on ESSM or RAM - they have other resources that are first in line. That's got nothing to do with their expectation that any particular system will work however.


All of this is by the by - can you provide any links or any official material to support your continued and extraordinary claims that the Aster missile doesn't work, or that most of it's tests are faked, and that somehow these fake tests have gone un-noticed by even the customers of foreign governments with no connection to the missile system itself.

I've cited what is usually held to be a reasonably authoritative link to the source material, Beedalls Navy Matters page, which, though no longer updated, is still accurate for the timescale involved. As many of the forum never check sources, I'll quote..

"The Horizon Project was mired in bureaucracy, with every decision requiring the approval of all the partners, and even the numbers to be built were constantly changing.  The Royal Navy needed 12 and stuck to that figure, whereas the French originally wanted  four and then cut that to two, while the Italians started at two, raised it to six and then finally reduced the requirement to two ships again. Given that it appeared that the UK was going to build three-quarters of all the ships and contribute 75% of the funding, the British also got increasingly annoyed with the Paris based French domination of the projects management, and the unfairly large French and Italian work shares proposed which right to end still assumed they would be buying 4 and 6 each."

 
And this was all before a single Naval test of Aster..


Ian 
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Hamilcar    You won't get open source admission that those criminals who soid you ASTER soid you junk.    7/11/2010 2:26:50 AM



Why not go the whole hog and claim the RN cut their buy of the T45 from 12 to 6 on the same basis?

  Why don't you ask them why? You'd be surprised at the true answer if they could admit it.
It's about as valid - the French and Italians never intended to buy the numbers you quote and only ever committed to the numbers they actually bought - that's the reason the UK pulled out of the Horizon project -- the French and Italian naval forces wanted workshares that were disproportionate to the intended buy (the UK were looking to buy more than the combined total of the Franco-Italian purchase but the Italians and French wanted workshares based on their maximum intended buy.

They still have the requirement for hulls Stobie and they have programs to boy, just NOT THESE HULLS. Much like the Royal Navy actually does. Wonder WHY?  

You claim they intend to tear out Aster-15 from the Italian carrier but maintain they're cancelling an entirHorizon Project history...e frigate class despite the fact that (as you suggest) it'd be very easy to install ESSM) - these seem to be competing views, and I suspect neither are referenced or sourced. Please provide links that are relevant. Why wouldn't the French or Italian Navies just do what the RN did and test it, discover it wanting and ask for a fix?
 

ESSM is not as easy install on the Horizon, as I thought,  unless you rewire and replumb after you.tear SYLVER  I learned something very new this week. SYLVER is a very compromised design. It would be a nightmare to Americanize it. I think it was FRENCH designed  that way deliberately. No matter. The ESSM still can be fotted.

And yes of course the Compte would never *rely* on the Aster-15 - in the same sense that none of the CV-N's used by the USN rely on ESSM or RAM - they (USN) have other resources that are first in line. That's got nothing to do with their expectation that any particular system will work however.
 

WRONG. Neither the RN nor the FM have a dedicated naval AWACS fighter combo that works worth a dam and/or the necessary bodyguard ships to catch the leakers that WILL get through their current defennse .. Especially the Chuckles de Gaulle relies on her ASTER missiles as her defense as the Rafale cannot function as a fleet area defense interceptor.  Crap radar and crap missiles are the reasons for thos. The CdG is NOT intended to fight in high threat area and is not committed (to the Persian Gulf for example) to such areas without American bodyguards at sea or in the air.  

That was the Cote d'Ivoire Lesson
 
All of this is by the by - can you provide any links or any official material to support your continued and extraordinary claims that the Aster missile doesn't work, or that most of it's tests are faked, and that somehow these fake tests have gone un-noticed by even the customers of foreign governments with no connection to the missile system itself.

I can show you events (see above), but what damned fool politician in  or out of uniform will tell you the truth?  

I've cited what is usually held to be a reasonably authoritative link to the source material, Beedalls Navy Matters page, which, though no longer updated, is still accurate for the timescale involved. As many of the forum never check sources, I'll quote..

"The Horizon Project was mi
 
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Phaid       8/7/2010 11:38:49 AM
Dredging this thread back up, a news post on Arabian Aerospace sums up the exercises yet again.
 

 
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