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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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french stratege       12/21/2009 12:29:39 PM
It's unlikely that it would work against the LPI of an AESA radar and I imagine that it prevents from using the radar normally during the time that it does active cancellation.
 
Just explain mean what is LPI in reality? Not just the definition but how it work in reality! LOL
BTW when you use your radar you are not invisible anymore with new interferometric RWR because I explain you that LPI confuse older generation receivers on spatial ambiguity.
A LPI radar always send a signal which is several magitude louder than background noise since radar signal is scaterred and have to come back to receiver.
LPI is a confusing technique
 
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french stratege       12/21/2009 12:41:56 PM
Just a book for begineers in ECM
Courtesy from US navy.
 
Page  5-8.3 :
 
In addition to agile frequency and PRI parameters, the future threat will be composed of a number of high-PRF
pulsed Doppler, burst-frequency, CW, pulse-compression, agile-beam, and LPI radars, which use pseudo-noise waveforms.
This conglomeration of radar types will cause a high signal density which must be segmented into a manageable data stream
by the use of both frequency and spatial filtering in the RWR. While frequency and PRI are good parameters for sorting
present-day non-agile emitters, they are poor or useless parameters for sorting agile emitters.
Angle of arrival is generally regarded as the best initial sorting parameter because it cannot be varied by the emitter from pulse to pulse.

See Page 5-8.5 :
 

As shown in Figure 4, angle-of-arrival measuring systems fall into three main system categories of:

1. Scanning beam

2. Amplitude comparison or Simultaneous-multiple-beam

3. Phased Interferometer techniques
 

Phased Interferometer or Array

- Very High Resolution

- High Cost

- Larger Size

- 3-5 Antennas/RF Paths per

Band/Sector

- Conformal Arrays Possible

 
Phase interferometer DF systems are utilized when accurate angle-of-arrival information is required. They have
the advantage of fast response, but require relatively complex microwave circuitry, which must maintain a precise phase
match over a wide frequency band under extreme environmental conditions. When high accuracy is required (on the
order of 0.1 to 1E), wide baseline interferometers are utilized with ambiguity resolving circuitry. The basic geometry is
depicted in Figure 5, whereby a plane wave arriving at an angle is received by one antenna earlier than the other due to
the difference in path length
 
See table
Table 3. Direction Of Arrival Measurement Techniques
Page 5-8.9
 
                                    Amplitude Comparison        Phase Interferometer
Typical DF Accuracy :  3E to 10E rms                    0.1E to 3E rms
 
 
 
 
 
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french stratege       12/21/2009 12:44:41 PM
Search LPI in
And you will see that several system are able to discriminate LPI radars and all are ESM measurement system with interferometric detectors to cancell spatial ambiguity.
Whatever US, french, israelis, Swedish ...
 
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benellim4       12/21/2009 12:59:43 PM
You quote sources you don't understand. You embarrass yourself. The only redeeming quality of your posts is that perhaps the Chicoms read your bovine fecal matter an believe it.
 
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french stratege       12/21/2009 1:12:17 PM
benellim4       12/21/2009 12:59:43 PM
You quote sources you don't understand. You embarrass yourself. The only redeeming quality of your posts is that perhaps the Chicoms read your bovine fecal matter an believe it.
Now you insult me also because you are a stupid american redneck with no brain between hears and without a decent engineering degree to understand.
The more I stay here and the more I see dumbass instead of people with decent brain and ability to discuss and who have really work in engineering field.
I could post dozen of technical links, even from the DoD, you would not read it and understand them.
 
 
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french stratege       12/21/2009 1:42:09 PM
Angle of arrival is generally regarded as the best initial sorting parameter because it cannot be varied by the emitter from pulse to pulse.
Indeed
Phase interferometer DF systems are utilized when accurate angle-of-arrival information is required.
 
Here a example of a US patent:
 
BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

Various reconnaissance systems are used to intercept radar signals and decipher some of their critical characteristics and angles of arrival. A microwave intercept receiver may be used for just this purpose. In particular reconnaissance applications in areas such as Electronic Warfare (EW) the receiver is designed to fulfill roles such as radar warning, electronic support measures (ESM), and Electronic Intelligence (ELINT). In most conventional approaches, the intercept receiver is designed to perform two functions The first function is to measure the signal characteristics of the intercepted signal, and the second is to determine its angle of arrival (AOA) for the purpose of direction finding (DF) and location of the radar source.

With the proliferation of radar systems and the increasing number of radars employing complex waveform modulation, it is difficult to differentiate and sort the intercepted radar signals using just the coarse conventional parameters. Typically these coarse parameters include AOA, carrier frequency, pulse width (PW), pulse repetition interval (PRI), and scan pattern. Since many radars have similar conventional parameters, ambiguity may occur in both the sorting and identification processes.

One type of receiver that may be used to precisely measure the conventional parameters as well as the intrapulse modulation for both sorting and identification purposes is the intrapulse receiver.

However, the use of Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) radars with low peak power has introduced a further requirement for modem intercept receivers, requiring them to have a much higher sensitivity in order to detect these LPI radar signals. Until recently, almost all radars were designed to transmit short duration pulses with a high peak power. This type of signal is easy to detect using relatively simple, traditional EW intercept receivers making the attacker (radar source) vulnerable to either antiradiation missiles or Electronic Counter Measures (ECM). However, by using LPI techniques it is possible to design a LPI radar that is effective against traditional EW intercept receivers. One of the most important LPI techniques is the use of phase or frequency waveform coding to provide transmitting duty cycles approaching one. This technique can result in drastic reductions in peak transmitted power while maintai
 
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Lynstyne       12/21/2009 2:23:19 PM

 

1) People who actually know what they're talking about, of whom there have been and are quite a few--too numerous to list and easily spotted after reading a few of their posts.  Lynstyne is among Group 1.
   Thats a Terrible thing to say about a man - if word like that got round work may start to take me seriously


 
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Reactive       12/21/2009 3:05:36 PM
BW, FS
 

Just want you to know, however much you sound like autistic 9 year-olds obsessing about the imgainary top-trumps value of their favourite toys, we respect you for being pure, unadulterated idiots. 
 
 
Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year : )



 
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One Five Five Echo       12/21/2009 3:07:32 PM
LOL, behold the power of Google.
 
If you think only those five airplanes have RF interferometers, you need to google some more ;)
 
And if you think a tactical aircraft sized platform can single ship geolocate fast enough to not only detect an LPI signal but then modulate it for deception and retrotransmit it in real time, all before you show up on the other guy's scope, you paid too much for your PhD.  You can eventually figure out something saw you, and you may eventually figure out what it is if the profile it's showing is in your library, and you may be able to do something about it if the range is right.  But you will not make yourself invisible to it.
 
For the "3D numeric stealth" thing, if that's all you meant, then it's another case of you finding out about a capability and mistaking it for something unique.  But I guess it's good you learned something in the process.
 
Like I said, Spectra is a nice system that tries to give the aircrew the most SA it can about surface to air threats so that you can see them before they can kill you.  And it's got a nice modern jammer.  It couples real nicely with the French tendency to fly super low and fast to hit point targets.  But you're all kinds of confused if you think that makes it anything out of the ordinary in air to air, or makes it able to fly around care free in a SAM threat environment.
 
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french stratege       12/21/2009 3:55:56 PM
One five five echo
But you will not make yourself invisible to it.
 Deception jamming (whatever false target, or range gate pull off, or velocity gate pull off, etc.) exist and work, and is more efficient when protecting a low RCS aircraft.Yes you can deny acquisition at greatest range and so reduce efficient range of ennemy radar
 
For the "3D numeric stealth" thing, if that's all you meant, then it's another case of you finding out about a capability and mistaking it for something unique.  But I guess it's good you learned something in the process.
I
did not say it is unique to Rafale since at least F22 and F35 get it.
 
And I'm sorry, but precise 3D location and jamming of ennemy radar work in AtoA.
 
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