So if we make the assumption that the source is accurate (I'm not convinced personally but I am making a point).

 

What were the terms of engagement, BVR/WVR, 

 

What was the altitude, what limitations were imposed on the scenario.

 

There's several situations where I can imagine rafale being dominant over eurofighter, but what is important is to know whether the typhoons were flying as per their service doctrine - fast at near service ceiling of 65000 feet, not whether they were better in a dogfight at low altitude/low speed - the thing that concerns me about these "leaks" (remember EF vs F22) is that they never comment specifically on the terms of engagement, and can selectively leak information that portrays them in a better light - previous training exercises have shown EF dominance over Rafale - I think respected posters never use such things as evidence unless they have more information available. I remain dubious - the EF can fly higher and faster than the rafale and has a better radar - it is BVR optimised, unless we know what the PURPOSE of this training ep was, as well as the situation, this doesn't mean much.

 

And where this differs from the F22 pilot is that you have a primary source saying literally that no aircraft present posed a challenge at any point in any scenario. Course, he could be exaggerating/lying, but it could just be that the F22 performs as it is designed to.

Jan 9/08: Air Combat Command officials clear 60% of the F-15A-D fleet for flying status, and recommends a limited return to flight for those planes that have cleared all inspections. The

That 60% statistic strategy guy posted has nothing to do with anything.  That was ACC returning 60% of the fleet to OK-to-fly status after having grounded ALL of them for longeron inspections.  A fleet-wide grounding because of a potential defect has nothing to do with operational MC rates.

 

In fact, really none of the statistics you guys are throwing around are meaningful in terms of who does a better job keeping their AC in the air when they are supposed to be, or whose airplanes are more maintainable.  Airplanes are maintained on a schedule based on need, available manpower, available parts, depot space, etc, all of which is really driven by a compromise between how many of them you want to fly every week and how much money you want to spend.  That really determines your MC rate. 

 

Sortie capability then is based on the notional MC rate for a type.  If a particular type has a low MC rate like the B-52s which are around 60% then the flight schedule takes that into account.  If your type has a high MC rate like Army turboprop ISR aircraft that are in the mid to high 80s then your schedule takes that into account.  But it doesn't mean that the B-52 maintainers are doing a bad job, it just means that they are old and complex aircraft and the reality is you can only keep so many on the flight line because keeping the fleet at >90% MC is just not cost effective.  And that's true for every aircraft: the MC rate boils down to how much money you are willing to spend to keep a certain percentage of airframes up.

 

FWIW US land-based aircraft are currently around 75% MC, with big bombers on the low end and high demand low density assets on the high end.

 

Anyway the real measure, which you probably do not have access to, is how often aircraft that are scheduled to fly, actually fly -- in other words, does the unit actually meet its operational commitment.

The two French links posted earlier on are genuine , the French Journalist at Secret-Défense is well informed .

It is even possible that he did participate YESTERDAY at the French DoD debrief regarding Al-Dhafra :

 

h*tp://www.defense.gouv.fr/defense/votre_espace/journalistes/points_presse/point_presse_du_ministere_de_la_defense_du_17_decembre_2009

 

We 'll know more in few days .

To me , the French Rafales did an outstanding job at Al-Dhafra , like they did at Red Flag or Tiger Meet just to name some exercises . They always have preformed extremely well in Dissimilar Air Combat Training .

It doesn 't come as a surprise , mind . The 1/7 Provence is an AtoG Squadron and they know their job and the aircraft , what must be noted is that the Rafale performed better in ELINT and SEAD than the specialised US F-16CJ .

What comes as a "woot" is that specialised Striker pilots spanked the Typhoon .

The Rafale pilots from the 1/91 Gascogne (AtoA Squadron +nuclear strike) must be jealous and/or laughing out loud !

 

On French military sites or forums , the general consensus is that the Dassault fighter scored again for itself .

 

Aircraft present at the DACT : F-16 C/D block 60 and Mirage 2000-9 (UAE), F-16 MLU (Jordan), F-7  [modernised version of the Mig-21] (Pakistan), Typhoon (UK) , F-16 CJ and F-22 (USA) , M2000-5F and Rafale (France) . 

Some scenarios involved up to 40 aircraft at once and the intensity was rated 'high' . The availability of the Rafales is said to be close to 100% , with 2 flights per day each composed of up to 4 aircraft .

 

I am still bugged (like many other Frenchmen) by the Rafale-F22 encounters . In 6 merges , the Rafale has been once in the F-22 gun sight , why ? A mistake from the French pilot ? An incredible manoever from a US pilot ?

And what about the 5 other times ?

A guy who knows at Air-Defense explained to us that during DACT , gun only scenarios were often limited to 1 or 2 minutes . After that , the aircraft involved simply break out and a draw is declared . Myself , I trust the guy .

If it did happen this way ~the UAE DACT rules are unknown at this time~ , I see it as an archivement for the Rafale .

Holding the F-22 5 times out of 6 is not a given for most actual aircraft . 

It could have gone the other way , maybe ;-)

 

Now , getting a 4-0 and then 3-1 against the Typhoon is no surprise , at least not for me .

The BVR setting was 4 against 4 , most probably with AtoA load only .

During the first encounter , the 4 Rafales killed the 4 Typhoons with no loss . (impressive , isn ' it)

The Captor better range doesn 't bring any edge , the lower Rafale 's RCS shows . Then , the Rafales probably used the "furet" tactic where one aircraft has all the bells and whistles ON , scanning happily everywhere to get datas and to be seen , the others staying silent and using datas from the 1st aircraft to direct passive means of detection while manoevring to get in position for a flank attack . The "furet" 's only jobs are to pass on the infos while staying outside the enemy missile bubble , before to join the fight . Sensor fusion and advance passive sensors are needed , of course .

It seems that the Typhoon is lacking against the Rafale .

 

Cheers . 

 

StobieWan , I know what you mean .

 

DACT rules or script can be diverse, it depends on why the DACT is taking place . RedFlag and Tiger Meet are NATO related , rules are different in each meeting but the main purpose is to try to work with each other the best we can against a scripted "agressor" .

The UAE DACT seems to be very different , at least from the outside . First , the Country is looking to buy a plane right now , secondly the UAE have used their own fighters (F-16s and M2000-9s) as agressors , both on the Blue and Red side . They were defending one day and attacking the other . This is not unusual but what was unusual is the apparent need for "all bells and whistles on" attitude , at least up to what was possible without giving the best away .

To prove my saying , a French M2000-5F pilot present at the exercise said that the aircraft had a hell of a time against the F-22 and was inferior . He was talking about BVR combat , and he added that he was not optimistic regarding a F-22/Rafale BVR encounter .

Sure , he never flew the Rafale but I respect his knowledgeable opinion .

 

To make it short , it seems that the UAE asked each aircraft to do very near its best , which is a very different scenario than mimic possible adverse fighters . The UAE most probably wanted to see what the aircraft involved can really do in a high intensity harsh script . They want to buy a fighter and even if the Rafale was the favorite before the exercise , they maybe wanted to be sure .

The 1/7 Provence Squadron Rafale did extremely well in ELINT , SEAD , Interdiction , self-defense , WVR (F-22) and Interception and they spanked the European fighter .

And to be honest , I can 't imagine the RAF aggreing to use the Typhoon as a "mock-up Iranian duck" .

 

Cheers .

Aside from the lie about the Swiss sale, gentlemen, let's note that the French are hard up against four evaluation deadlines in the next year. Brazil, Switzerland, UAE, and INDIA. They have lots of incentive to LIE and exaggerate in their press about their turkey. Euros ride on it. Dassault have to make a sale, no matter how small. They are that desperate.

 

I don't accept that journos, as GF calls them, have any more unbiased insight than any other mouthpiece for the "party line". They will report and claim the same garbage that the Klown Klub or the Sprey brigade or GD Land systems would for their lightweight fighter or the Aardvark or some dumb tactical idea for the same EXACT reason: MONEY.

 

When desperation claims and exaggeration sets in, look at the MONEY CAUSE.

 

   

DACT rules or script can be diverse, it depends on why the DACT is taking place . RedFlag and Tiger Meet are NATO related , rules are different in each meeting but the main purpose is to try to work with each other the best we can against a scripted "agressor" .

 

They want to buy a fighter and even if the Rafale was the favorite before the exercise , they maybe wanted to be sure .

possible adverse fighters . The UAE most probably wanted to see what the aircraft involved can really do in a high intensity

I know gf , it hurts .

I just wander what it 's hurting you since nothing and no one from Oz was involved . You go as far as denying everything I say just to disprove the Dassault Rafale but you forget to keep in mind that I obviously know a bit more about the UAE DACT than you do . No bad intended , just a reminder .

 

Let 's get real here , you more or less all say "good job and the F-22 rules" when it 's coming back undefeated , but you bash the Rafale because , well , fill the dots ...

Is that partial ? Yes it is . The Rafales did an excellent job in every mission they were tasked to do and during AtoA evaluations and scripted scenarios , they shined . From where I stand , they were again the best multirole fighters of the DACT like they have been for the past 3 years since they are F2s and now F3s in fact . Which is the normal development .

Forget BW for a moment and read what I say , it is founded .

 

Cheers .

Hamilcar :