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Subject: 6*F-22 vs 6*Typhoon vs 6*Rafale in the UAE?!
giblets    11/16/2009 4:48:58 AM
According to both Flight Global, and Defence News, other than attending the Dubai airshow, the USAF, RAF, and FAF each sent 6 of their finest fighter aircraft to the desert Kingdom to take part in multinational exercises. Other than adding much fuel to the fire for forum members here! It raises many questions (such as why the USAF was unable to send 1 F-22 to Paris, and can now send 6 to the UAE, despite no drop in operational tempo). And will the F22 and Typhoon not be in the air at the same time again?
 
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Bluewings12       12/15/2009 4:42:20 PM
Would you please stop shooting at the messenger and deal with his/her saying .
I am sure that there is some smart people around besides the usual Herald clown .
 
Cheers .
 
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Hamilcar       12/15/2009 5:16:08 PM

Would you please stop shooting at the messenger and deal with his/her saying .

I am sure that there is some smart people around besides the usual Herald clown .


 

Cheers .


The messenger wrecks himself, truckdriver. I don't do a thing to help you along, except point out the obvious. Why will the Swiss take a Rafale to replace F-5s? Why not their F-18s? The F-5 is a rather low end fighter. Seems that they want to replace old junk with new junk.  
 
If they replace their F-5s with Gripens, I will laugh, because once again an air force will make the RIGHT decision.    
 
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french stratege       12/15/2009 5:19:38 PM
Unfortunately France also contains fanboys and superpatriots who haven't got a clue, like every country does too.

That is true!
I'm just a patriot who has a clue and try to be honest.
F22 is a marvel as a air to air fighter.
F35 is a good strike fighter to complement but very compromized for air to air in altitude even its stealth is supposed to compensate.Not so polyvalent and it is why Japan is reluctant since they want an air to air performer.
Rafale is an excellent fighter as a platform based on a different concept.Program was funded slowly and F3+AESA is the first complete version to match the concept.Sure that our air force was not in hurry since their is no threat to match it unless we would be supposed to fight F22.
I would say Rafale is the french idea of what should be an early affordable 5th generation.Its avionic is 5th, it could be considered as 5th for survivability thank to Spectra, and its flight performance are much better of F35 at least for T/W ratio and wing loading.
Replace a penalty of 4 tons on airframe and price to get internal bay by a jammer never seen on any aircraft and a LO signature.
And it has two revolutionary weapons unseen in other air force: Mica IR and AASM.
The only question is to know if Rafale can perform decently the job against a stealth fighter like F35 or F22 and I think it will.
Not better than F22 but certainly not a a siting duck like a F15C or a F16C or a SU30.
 
Rafale: active protection against detection, long range passive detection and shooting, fully networked, supermanoeuvrability at all altitudes.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/15/2009 5:50:30 PM


Well ... Can I after all the garbage I just read ? I am going to try my best .

this will be good,  how many times have you publicly been shown to be lying outright?  shall we start to reel them off?
 
hows that RAM coated flange plate research going?
 

No . The F-35 is the continuation of a stealth approach .
 
oh for goodness sake, don't be such a luddite.  LO is but one element in the toolset.  at least make the effort to understand 

 
I buy a B-2 over a F-35 anyday . My "F-35 folder" is rather big and I know my bit about the Jet . I tell you what get 's me "wet" , the DASS and that 's it . The rest of the aircraft ~on paper~ is medium to good with the radar being excellent .

Excellent, so you don't understand the tactical employment issues because you want to employ an aircraft that has no tactical employment similarity.
 
The F-35 is not opening or going to open anything .

considering the fact that consistently in 6 years you have misunderstood RCS profiling, abused the term "stealth" beyond comprehension and make things up with gay abandon should give us all comfort about your level of technical and tactical comprehension
 

The F-35 is a prototype and no one knows how it will perform . What you just said in an opinion , nothing more .
 
It hasn't stopped you from mkaing ridiculous statements

He is gf . 
 
Thanks for comprehending rhetoric

What is striking me , Dear Ozzie , is the fact that you suppose to know few strings but you leave them aside because it is disturbing to you . Btw , this is one of the reasons I stopped to see you as a brilliant poster .

What a load of tosh.  In the first instance I don't need to viewed as brilliant by anyone - especially by someone who hasn't understood basic concepts.  Whats disturbing is your continued form over the last 6 years to repeat untruths, to distort technlogy concepts and to lie wth such repeated fervour that everyone on here (including other french posters) apoliogise for your form because its so transparent.
 
Let me see:
 
dirty surfaces effecting RCS returns - 3 trimes in 6 years and finally admitted that you didn't know about the effects - even though the same radar engineers reference book was quoted each time
 
brimstone - remember the stupidity of your comments on weapons effectiveness based on cost
 
snipers - 150m is a long shot - gees 150m doesn't get you qualified as a marksman in western militaries.  funny that you don't seem to know how snipers actually operate.
 
TAMARA - told everyone it was a radar system when it isn't
 
 I can go and find more if you like - and I'm sure the others are keen to start up a thread with all your pearlers.  so before you start to crow about your expertise then have a look at the above for starters.
 

 A Company walking over another Company and ending up buying it is a daily fact , gf , you know it for cry out loud !

and what has that got to do with any of my comments? Or in the case of GIAT the state has to step in to assist.
 
What do you think Renault or PSA is trying to do in the car market ?! Also , few years ago Airbus was inexistant and now they own 50% of the airliner market ! Do you want some more examples gf ?

CREF above.
 
 
 
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Hamilcar    What is a superpatriot?   12/15/2009 6:14:20 PM

Unfortunately France also contains fanboys and superpatriots who haven't got a clue, like every country does too.



That is true!

I'm just a patriot who has a clue and try to be honest.

F22 is a marvel as a air to air fighter.

F35 is a good strike fighter to complement but very compromized for air to air in altitude even its stealth is supposed to compensate.Not so polyvalent and it is why Japan is reluctant since they want an air to air performer.

Rafale is an excellent fighter as a platform based on a different concept.Program was funded slowly and F3+AESA is the first complete version to match the concept.Sure that our air force was not in hurry since their is no threat to match it unless we would be supposed to fight F22.

I would say Rafale is the french idea of what should be an early affordable 5th generation.Its avionic is 5th, it could be considered as 5th for survivability thank to Spectra, and its flight performance are much better of F35 at least for T/W ratio and wing loading.

Replace a penalty of 4 tons on airframe and price to get internal bay by a jammer never seen on any aircraft and a LO signature.

And it has two revolutionary weapons unseen in other air force: Mica IR and AASM.

The only question is to know if Rafale can perform decently the job against a stealth fighter like F35 or F22 and I think it will.

Not better than F22 but certainly not a a siting duck like a F15C or a F16C or a SU30.

 

Rafale: active protection against detection, long range passive detection and shooting, fully networked, supermanoeuvrability at all altitudes.

 
One who is deluded by nationalism to the point that he cannot recognize the truth.  

Those assertions you make have not one iota of truth and you know it. In your heart, you know it. You should have the math and technical skills to recognize it, so why assert nonsense? You KNOW the truth. The truck driver has an excuse, he doesn't have the training, or the education and he doesn't have a clue, but you were a professional officer. What is YOUR excuse?      
\
 
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french stratege       12/15/2009 7:49:15 PM




Unfortunately France also contains fanboys and superpatriots who haven't got a clue, like every country does too.







That is true!



I'm just a patriot who has a clue and try to be honest.



F22 is a marvel as a air to air fighter.



F35 is a good strike fighter to complement but very compromized for air to air in altitude even its stealth is supposed to compensate.Not so polyvalent and it is why Japan is reluctant since they want an air to air performer.



Rafale is an excellent fighter as a platform based on a different concept.Program was funded slowly and F3+AESA is the first complete version to match the concept.Sure that our air force was not in hurry since their is no threat to match it unless we would be supposed to fight F22.



I would say Rafale is the french idea of what should be an early affordable 5th generation.Its avionic is 5th, it could be considered as 5th for survivability thank to Spectra, and its flight performance are much better of F35 at least for T/W ratio and wing loading.



Replace a penalty of 4 tons on airframe and price to get internal bay by a jammer never seen on any aircraft and a LO signature.



And it has two revolutionary weapons unseen in other air force: Mica IR and AASM.



The only question is to know if Rafale can perform decently the job against a stealth fighter like F35 or F22 and I think it will.



Not better than F22 but certainly not a a siting duck like a F15C or a F16C or a SU30.



 



Rafale: active protection against detection, long range passive detection and shooting, fully networked, supermanoeuvrability at all altitudes.





 

One who is deluded by nationalism to the point that he cannot recognize the truth.  





Those assertions you make have not one iota of truth and you know it. In your heart, you know it. You should have the math and technical skills to recognize it, so why assert nonsense? You KNOW the truth. The truck driver has an excuse, he doesn't have the training, or the education and he doesn't have a clue, but you were a professional officer. What is YOUR excuse?      



And an engineer and a Phd
My excuse is that I know much better my country and its weapons than you Halmicar.
I can admit you know something in naval technologies or propulsion so mechanical engineering (I supect you to have worked on SSBN programs and your location in USA enforce that), but I'm sure you have no experience in ECM and datafusion.
You underestimate us and you even refuse that we can follow our own path different from US.
I'm a patriot but not a dumb nationalist.France does not perform always well, (as USA), but I can says you Rafale is not the worst thing we have done.
 
F22 attempt in UAE is quite amazing and it show that F22 and USAF has it friends in congress.
Good attempt.
But after consideration, I don't think that UAE will drop the rafale but use F22 to put pressure on price and conditions.
Indeed UAE who have a great men shortage, needs pilots and who can better fly a fighter than a pilot from the state who plane was build?
UAE want probably to keep two friends.
 
 
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french stratege       12/15/2009 7:54:47 PM
I have to say that for the Swizz contract I thought at first glance that improved Gripen was well suited for their neeeds.And more than Rafale.So the performance difference must have been great enough or some advantages that France could give or not give outside this field.
 
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warpig       12/15/2009 9:19:18 PM




One who is deluded by nationalism to the point that he cannot recognize the truth.  

Those assertions you make have not one iota of truth and you know it.

My excuse is that I know much better my country and its weapons than you Halmicar.

I'm a patriot but not a dumb nationalist.France does not perform always well, (as USA), but I can says you Rafale is not the worst thing we have done.

F22 attempt in UAE is quite amazing and it show that F22 and USAF has it friends in congress.

Good attempt.

But after consideration, I don't think that UAE will drop the rafale but use F22 to put pressure on price and conditions.


...and here FS actually provides the evidence even as he denies the allegation:
 
Hamilcar:
"Super patriot...."
"One who is deluded by nationalism to the point that he cannot recognize the truth."
 
FS:
 
"I'm a patriot but not a dumb nationalist." 
"F22 attempt in UAE is quite amazing and it show that F22 and USAF has it friends in congress.
Good attempt."
"But after consideration, I don't think that UAE will drop the rafale but use F22 to put pressure on price and conditions."
 
 
An amazing conclusion for someone who is not blinded by superpatriotism, considering there is not one shred of evidence for anything of the sort.
 
 
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Das Kardinal       12/16/2009 3:11:35 AM
Since F22 production was stopped, what happened to the manufacturing line ? Does it still exist somewhere laying dormant or was it dismantled already ? In the former case, I could see production resuming for an hypothetical foreign order, in the latter, no way.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/16/2009 4:12:48 AM

Since F22 production was stopped, what happened to the manufacturing line ? Does it still exist somewhere laying dormant or was it dismantled already ? In the former case, I could see production resuming for an hypothetical foreign order, in the latter, no way.

they've already started pulling F-22 prod staff onto the JSF line.
 
the F-22 never  hit cost effectiveness on the production run, so the chances of the Administration deciding to inject funds to do so is basically zip.  Bear in mind that the F-22 only has one revenue stream whereas JSF has 8.3.2 so is far more atrractive to LM anyway
 
If you believe that the prod run will restart and hit the magic cost effective number (and thats the vanilla versions, not some pretend export version) then I can sell you the opera house in sydney as well
 
 
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