Hamilcar :

Even in von Richhofen's day this was so, the great ace's success was his adherence to Dicta Boelcke.  The Red Baron was not necessarily the best pilot in the air, his aim was not for a joust.  

 

Given the Raptor's qualities of stealth, height and speed, I can't see WVR combat being something that is willingly engaged in unless there is no choice.  And even then, the preference would be to maneuvor to the enemy's six for maximum advantage rather than engaging in a head on merge where your enemy could put their eyeball on you.  Why give up the bulk of you advantage when you don't absolutely need to.

 

 The odds of being shot down in a WVR furball with multiple bogeys increases so while our pilots may practice WVR DACT it is not a preferential outcome.  Indeed at least one account of a F22 shootdown during Red Flag occurred when the Red Force regenerated a plane that took the Blue Force entirely unawares, i.e. a loss of situational awareness. 

 

but the point is that within gun range that opposing aircraft could not get a weapon sensor, IR, or radar lock on that Raptor is lost on our resident Rafale defender. That was a SUPER HORNET that could not do that!  The SHs eat Rafales for lunch. The camera/"gun"  kill the SH scored was Mark 1 eyeball and good pilot exploitation of a Raptor driver's mistake.     

Normally, I would go point-by-point, but you aren't worth that much time right now, so I will just make comments.

 

1)  I am by no means convinced that some animation showing some sort of seeker scan is the equivalent of using an IRST to independently search for and track targets under the control of the pilot with video display to the pilot, and then there's still all the concerns regarding the efficacy of even using IRSTs, much less psuedo-IRST IIR missile seekers.

2)  I do agree that even the early technology IIR seekers like the MICA IR should be able to lock onto a twin-engine fighter in AB headed toward the Rafale at something like 15-30km, and headed away from the Rafale at 30-60km.

3)  35km, or even 29km, isn't WVR.

4)  F-22s don't fly around with missile bay doors open, even if they decide to enter into close range to use their AIM-9s; they get a lock-on, decide when to shoot, *then* open the doors and lock the AIM-9 on the target, shoot, and close up again.

5)  Dogfighting is something to be avoided.  A guy could get killed that way.  No one desires to enter a dogfight; you only do that if you failed to shoot him down first and currently can't safely extend out of the fight.

6)  If you are violently maneuvering, it's because you've done something wrong, now you're defensive, and you're trying to regain a position of advantage; however, given the F-22s own aerodynamic capabilities plus all its other advantages, there's no better aircraft to be in if you aren't able to avoid engaging in such a high-risk activity as WVR combat or even dogfighting.
7)  Yes, when they're out of AMRAAMs, they certainly could very possibly decide to go home.  In the extreme case when no

Obtuse the bitter end I see? If, as in your question, the F22 is out of AIM-120's, then there's no point in opening the doors at 30km, and it'd be pretty dim to do so, then fly straight towards the enemy.The AIM-9X has a range of something like half that distance - so the F22 pilot is going to do something a bit brighter, like move to a part of the sky the opposition may not see him coming from, and use the advantages conferred by situational awareness, speed and altitude to get into a winning position with 'winders.

Hence my questioning what you meant by your scenario - it was a very loaded example which seemed to rely on the F22 pilot behaving in a very passive and co-operative manner in order bolster your argument.

 

Ian

 

 

 

The odds of being shot down in a WVR furball with multiple bogeys increases so while our pilots may practice WVR DACT it is not a preferential outcome.  Indeed at least one account of a F22 shootdown during Red Flag occurred when the Red Force regenerated a plane that took the Blue Force entirely unawares, i.e. a loss of situational awareness. 

Sorry but I don't see this as a lack if situational awareness at all. I see it as the guys running the show trying to make a point. What it is I don't know. The F22 was told the a/c was killed. That does not mean they were no longer tracking it on their radar. I am sure they were. And in real life if the a/c was still there the F22 would have taken additional action to kill it. But in this exercise it was told for all practical purpose it is dead and to ignore it. Then like magic they make it alive agin at an oppurtune time and let it kill the F22? Yea right. Don't think in real life it works like that.

 

beazz

From what I know of Red Flag, I would say this is entirely correct.  The idea especially during the Cold War was that Red Force (i.e. the Warsaw Pact) would outnumber the Blue Force (NATO), and since the actual numbers involved in Aggressor squadrons are limited, there had to be some way to simulate this--hence the respawn points.  Red's spawn points would usually be in the ranges themselves, whereas Blue's was outside the range. 

 

Both sides cheated, of course.  I've talked to some F-15 pilots who told me they liked to find where Red's respawn points were and stake them out.  A "killed" F-5 flies over, "respawns," flies back into the fight--and finds two F-15s waiting for him who already have altitude on him and lock him up immediately.  Funny how this stuff was being done in the 1980s, but in the computer gaming world, spawn and respawn are now common terms...as is camping...

 

Another cheat was that Red Force wasn't allowed to shoot down the AWACS, for fears that it would lead to E-3 drivers trying to do death-defying missile breaks and possibly crashing in the process, or tankers, for the same reason.  On the other hand, F-15s were occasionally told they could only engage in WVR, and when the F-14s participated, they were not allowed to sim Phoenix shots--since those dastardly Navy pilots would probably start locking up aggressors over the range as soon as they took off from Nellis. 

 

I imagine something of the sort still happens, where F-22 pilots are not allowed to use BVR shots to hone their dogfighting skills.  Yeah, nobody wants to dogfight (well, I imagine fighter pilots like to mix it up on occasion, but only the crazy ones in actual combat), but like the Marines say, nobody wants to fight, but someone better know how.

 

If it's a WVR fight and the Rafale is flown by a damn fine pilot, then yeah, it stands an even chance against a F-22, especially if the Raptor pilot underestimates him.  Not to dump on the Rafale, but the same could be said if the French pilot was in a F-8 and got the drop on the F-22.  There's a reason why Top Gun graduate sorties sometimes end up fighting F-86s, F-4s, and even F4Us...because you never know.