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Subject: Amerika Bomber and Japan
ambush    11/13/2009 9:24:25 AM
This is not a Rafale thread. There was a lot of tech transfer from Germany to Japan during WWII, in exchange for raw materials. Moving into the relm of what if; a tech tranfer in the other direction from Japan to Germany. Would a German copy of the Japanese Ki-77 been Germany's best bet at an Amerika Bomber? It easily had the range and could have carried a useful payload if configured right. Would the master race have accepted copying a design?
 
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One Five Five Echo       11/13/2009 10:31:28 AM
 The Nazis had a number of "Amerikabomber" projects well under way, including the Messershmitt Me 264, Focke Wulf Ta 400, Junkers Ju 390.  The Me 264 was the closest to fruition.
 
Dont think the Ki-77 would have had the payload to do anything much bomber wise.
 
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ambush       11/13/2009 11:13:10 AM

 The Nazis had a number of "Amerikabomber" projects well under way, including the Messershmitt Me 264, Focke Wulf Ta 400, Junkers Ju 390.  The Me 264 was the closest to fruition.

 

Dont think the Ki-77 would have had the payload to do anything much bomber wise.



From what little informatin is available it had an 11,000 plus mile range.  The ME 264 and JU390 were in the 9,000 to 9,500 range.   Berlin to New York round trip would be about 8,000.  Seems to me the Ki-77 could afford to tradeoff fuel for increased payload.  Granted it was designed as a boomber but if we accept that any Amerika bomber was looking for psychological impact rather than real material impact just how big a bomb load would you need?
 
Depending from were you took off (I just picked Berlin), and the payload this aircarft could have even attacked Charleston SC. and the Panama Canal looks to be on the extreme end of its range but might be doable.
 
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Hamilcar       11/13/2009 1:27:20 PM
 
quote from the comments section:
 
Comments  
Simon Gunson, simongunson(@)paradise.net.nz, 10.04.2009

Hello Holger,

Yes your grandfather's unit was primarily involved with airfield construction around the Crimea and by 1943 it comprised 5 companies with an attached Koflug air traffic control unit Lw.-Bau-Geräte-Zug 2. This Luftgau Kommando Flughafenbereich was an airport area command unit. It may not have had it's own flak units, but it would have controlled flak batteries of surrounding units.

In his book "Russia and the West" STEPHEN D. KERTESZ alerts me that in June 1943 Molotov flew to Sarabus for secret peace talks with the Germans. It is highly likely therefore that Tachikawa Ki-77 flight was involved with transporting a Japanese peace legation to Sarabus for further talks. Prince Konoye was involved in creating Peace talks between Hitler and Stalin in 1943.

I will have to go back and hunt down my source for ULTRA signal Holger. Most likely I read of it at Axishistoryforum website, but I will go back to sources. I genuinely can't recall at the moment.

Holger, Hannoveraner(@)gmx.de, 06.04.2009

Hi Simon!

Could you let me know your source for the "Enigma signal sent to Lw.-Bau-Btl. 16/XI warning that unit to stand down it's Flak batteries"?

My Grandfather was a member of that unit the whole time (09/39-01/45?) and this is the firt hint I've ever found, that the unit did not do construction works only but seem to have Flak batteries (or at least used them).


Kind regards,

Holger

Simon Gunson, simongunson(@)paradise.net.nz, 31.12.2008

This aircraft was intended to fly a non-stop mission from Singapore to Sarabus airfield in the Crimea on 7 July 1943. A reception committee from Luftwaffe high command arrived at Sarabus to greet it including Karl Gartenfeld, Horst Gotz, and Wolfgang Nebel who disembarked Ju-290 T9+FK. The British however read an Enigma signal sent to Lw.-Bau-Btl. 16/XI warning that unit to stand down it's Flak batteries.

The following ULTRA signal from Berlin dated 7 July 1943 was sent to Kdo.d.Flughafenbereich 6/VI (Airfield Regional Command) at Sarabus, Crimea :

"On 8/7 an allied aircraft will fly via air grid squares 3420, 2560 and 2510 to Sarabus. It is a two engined low wing monoplane, wing span 30 metres, metal fuselage, natural colour, wings grey. The aircraft must not be fired on under any circumstances."

The ULTRA signals intelligence analyst at Blechley Park then appended the following note: "This presumably refers to undertaking "GOA" in which an aircraft was flying to Sarabus from Tokio via Singapore." (ULTRA signal CX/MSS 2867/T8). The British clearly expected "GOA" undertaking and set out to intercept the aircraft over the Indian Ocean, where the Ki-77 was thought to have disappeared.

 
It was designed as a twin engined high altitude glider. I doubt that as a passenger and long endurance flight aircraft that it could carry any useful strong-back supported loads such as a bomb load.
 
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