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Subject: Brimstone in Afghanistan
Heorot    10/30/2009 5:30:12 PM
Laser Brimstone has bee fired in anger for the first time.

ht*p://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/30/334162/raf-hails-performance-of-tornado-gr4-in-afghanistan.html

The RAF has detailed its first combat use of the newly upgraded weapon, which weighs roughly 50kg (110lb). A Tornado fired one of the missiles at a Taliban insurgent who was firing on coalition troops from a so-called "murder hole" carved within the wall of a compound. It scored a direct hit, destroying only a 1.5m (5ft) section of wall and without causing collateral damage to surrounding buildings.

An RAF source describes the new weapon as "a massive success", adding: "It is incredibly accurate". The missile is also capable of striking moving ground targets, the source adds.
 
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Bluewings12       10/30/2009 9:27:58 PM
It proves the accuracy of the Brimstone . Small and deadly weapon .
 
However ;-) , why not using a Sniper with a 7,65 or a 9mm bullet (or a 50cal) to kill a single Taliban ?
Do you know how many bullets you can get for the price of a Brimstone ? Few thousands and some more ...
I understand that the Tornado was there and it did a fine job (!) , but ... well , it is an expensive way to kill a single Taliban .
 
Cheers .
 
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jackjack       10/30/2009 9:52:58 PM
is this because you dont believe in CAS or is it sour grapes because rafales AtoG missile has an accuracy of 10m
 
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gf0012-aust       10/30/2009 10:09:35 PM
but ... well , it is an expensive way to kill a single Taliban .


10 years ago the russians killed a chechyan leader by using a tactical ballistic missile.  80km from target. 15 mins from ident to termination.  $1,000,000 to kill a terrorist and a GAZ 4wd.

its about the value of the target - not the cost of the system to prosecute and kill.
 
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Beazz       10/30/2009 10:14:09 PM
It is amazing. No matter what any other nations weapons do or how well they do it, if it somehow does it better then the French ( which is fairly common ) BW & FS always follows it up with a *but* or *if* !! Chill out BW, I'm sure sooner or later France will shoot one or 2 more missiles in a land far far away and then the mighty Rafail will be *combat proven* again lol
 
Beazz
 
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gf0012-aust       10/31/2009 12:47:52 AM

is this because you dont believe in CAS or is it sour grapes because rafales AtoG missile has an accuracy of 10m

actually it's because he hasn't understood that the kill decision is based on real time issues such as target opportunity,  the value of the target and what the tactical constraints were/are. real time opportunity based termination events aren't based on "value for money". 

for someone who was in the military he demonstrates a pi$$ poor comprehension of how this probably came about.
 
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RedParadize       10/31/2009 4:05:29 PM
Just imagine what a bunch of tornado could have done with that missile in the first gulf war. 
 
The Birmstone seem to be a very potent missile, versatile and accurate. It was designed to destroy tank, and now it blow sniper and bunker. I am sure air force around the world will be seduce by its flexibility.
 
I wonder if it could be adapted to LO plane. in all the video i have seen, the missile is fired from its rack. It would have to be dropped prior its ignition to be lunch from a F-35 bay.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/31/2009 7:57:06 PM

However ;-) , why not using a Sniper with a 7,65 or a 9mm bullet (or a 50cal) to kill a single Taliban ?

Don't you think the Taliban design their "murder holes" with avoiding the entry of bullets in mind, ya knob.
 
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Lynstyne       11/1/2009 4:35:50 AM




However ;-) , why not using a Sniper with a 7,65 or a 9mm bullet (or a 50cal) to kill a single Taliban ?





Don't you think the Taliban design their "murder holes" with avoiding the entry of bullets in mind, ya knob.


I ignored the comment but on reading youre coment i noticed the 9mm
 
Im picturing a monty python scene
excuse me you with the kalishnikov - yes you behind the cover yes you . you  - would you be so good as to not shoot whilst i come and stand closer to you,    thats right   now raise youre head above the parapet
Dashed good of you    BANG -
right gentlemen thats how you tackle a conceled enemy   Jones youre up next.
 
For an ex S.F guy he seems rather ill informed and educated regarding  certain issues.
 
Id love to know what unit he was in    - My better halfs brother was with a french elite outfit (para comando type thing name and designation lost in translation,  but he seems to be much better informed
 
 
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jackjack       11/1/2009 5:16:30 AM
For an ex S.F guy he seems rather ill informed and educated regarding  certain issues.
Id love to know what unit he was in   
 

gee, ya dont think he's lying again, do you ?
any bets that he has never been in service ?
 
he's actually giving the french a bad name and the lying little toe rag doent even live there
as per a post of his on the french site, air-defense.net
 
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gf0012-aust       11/1/2009 5:42:14 AM
For an ex S.F guy he seems rather ill informed and educated regarding  certain issues.

for an ex Specwarrie (or any professional soldier) to make those comments and be seemingly ignorant about the circumstances and tactical constraints either makes him a troll - or someone who's been cavalier with the truth about his prev occupation

..... especially when the french have also been involved in these events
 
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Lynstyne       11/1/2009 6:47:05 AM
Its not as if its unusual to Mallet a sniper (Unfortunatly the media calls any gunman a sniper)
 
Artillary and Mortars are approved methods, i believe the finns used to sucker the soviet snipers into firing then return fire with large calibre anti tank weapons. and unless ive been lied to for many years well concealed proffesional argentine snipers in the mountains were very difficult to deal with -  right up until the point a milan unit got into firing position. (By all accounts a near miss on the hide was enough). (calling Bob - theres a Man whos gonna now for sure)
 
So why any spec warry or proffessional would be suprised that an antitank weapon was used to deal with (what in all probability was) a well concealed and protected fighting position is beyond me.
 
At this point he strikes me as Trolling or lieing..
 
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gf0012-aust       11/1/2009 8:22:07 AM
there are any number of instances where B52's doing laps have been called in to do CAS with precision weapons.  The most obvious that springs to mind is at Qala-i-Janghi.  there's no shortage of similar events where fighters have been called in "danger close" to also deliver precision weapons.

then there is the prev aforementioned RussianSS-21 TBM launch used to kill the Chechyan leader, Dudayev - all based on trigging his last known mobile/cell phone transmission and then launching from over 80kms away.

the fact that BW tried to compare/equate effectiveness and utility with absolute weapons cost just makes him look rather lame - and look like a troll.

either way.  good job with brimstone.  go the poms.
 
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Bluewings12       11/1/2009 11:41:21 AM
??? What 's wrong with you Guys ?
I said that the Tornado and the Brimstone did a fine job (I quote) but that it was an expensive way to kill a single Taliban .
I can 't see anything wrong with that .
 
Now on the tactical PoV , it indeed does make sense because the goal has been archived : kill the target .
 
I urge you not to come to me with your BS about how things should be done on the ground as none of you (I believe) has ever been on the field in wartime . The only few SP posters who have been in service and been fighting wars in the last 20 years are not saying much and some of them are not posting anymore on SP . I rarely accept to debate such topics with civilians and what I did in the French SpecOps with the GIA (old CPA-10) during the 80's can 't be debated here on StrategyPage , bare few anecdotes . I shared few thing with people like ArmyRifle , Darth America and few others because they were in the business but that 's about it .
To my defense , we didn 't have anything close to Brimstone or JDAM or AASM during the 80 's . 
 
""A Tornado fired one of the missiles at a Taliban insurgent who was firing on coalition troops from a so-called "murder hole" carved within the wall of a compound""
 
It is obviously a Taliban sniper (whatever the weapon he used) and the way to take out such threat is the A-B-C of the job , the basic . Against my 6 or 8 men Commando , the target would have had a very short life :
-1) Smoke grenade(s) while we take position under cover
-2) Sniper binome (2 men team) separated from the other men , in position and waiting for the smoke to disperse
-3) LRAC team (portable rocket launcher) and heavy machinegun team start fire at the same time against the enemy "murder hole" (one might get shot at)
-4) Sniper team (me and my observer) wait to finish the job if the enemy sniper does show up again .
End of story .
That's the way we worked in the 80 's .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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Lynstyne       11/1/2009 11:53:28 AM

??? What 's wrong with you Guys ?

I said that the Tornado and the Brimstone did a fine job (I quote) but that it was an expensive way to kill a single Taliban .

I can 't see anything wrong with that .


 

Now on the tactical PoV , it indeed does make sense because the goal has been archived : kill the target .

 

I urge you not to come to me with your BS about how things should be done on the ground as none of you (I believe) has ever been on the field in wartime . The only few SP posters who have been in service and been fighting wars in the last 20 years are not saying much and some of them are not posting anymore on SP . I rarely accept to debate such topics with civilians and what I did in the French SpecOps with the GIA (old CPA-10) during the 80's can 't be debated here on StrategyPage , bare few anecdotes . I shared few thing with people like ArmyRifle , Darth America and few others because they were in the business but that 's about it .


To my defense , we didn 't have anything close to Brimstone or JDAM or AASM during the 80 's . 


 


""A Tornado fired one of the missiles at a Taliban insurgent who was firing on coalition troops from a so-called "murder hole" carved within the wall of a compound""

 

It is obviously a Taliban sniper (whatever the weapon he used) and the way to take out such threat is the A-B-C of the job , the basic . Against my 6 or 8 men Commando , the target would have had a very short life :

-1) Smoke grenade(s) while we take position under cover

-2) Sniper binome (2 men team) separated from the other men , in position and waiting for the smoke to disperse


-3) LRAC team (portable rocket launcher) and heavy machinegun team start fire at the same time against the enemy "murder hole" (one might get shot at)


-4) Sniper team (me and my observer) wait to finish the job if the enemy sniper does show up again .


End of story .


That's the way we worked in the 80 's .

 

Cheers .


 

 



Firstly You do not know who has or hasnt served
Secondly you said its expensive why not use a bullet you were the one critisising the method. im sure you were probably working up to a method where a french infantry squad would have crept up on him using active cancellation then thanks to there superiour agility taken him out in a knife fight.
thirdly  Nobody but nobody gave you any BS all any one effectivly said was it makes sense to use the tools to hand regardles of cost.
 
Oh and as for a 9mm against a sniper that made you sound like an idiot.
 
In fact re - read my post my so called BS was simply a few examples of historic precedent.
 
 
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Lynstyne       11/1/2009 12:50:01 PM

??? 

I urge you not to come to me with your BS about how things should be done on the ground as none of you (I believe) has ever been on the field in wartime .
Fourthly with regard to the above   POT KETTLE BLACK  that statement  has left you wide open for this one
 
I urge you not to come to me with your BS about how things are done on anaircraft of you (I believe) have never worked on an aircraft or flown one.
 
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