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Subject: Lockheed Martin improves F-35 bid for Korean F-X III, blasts KFX program as waste of money
SlowMan    10/21/2009 12:56:36 PM
< link >

Lockheed Martin is offering to outsource its own work share of JSF program to Korean companies as offset if Korean DoD selects F-35 for F-X III competition. At the same time, KFX program is blasted as being poor value for money.

However, F-35 selection is even less likely based on what's revealed. Both F-X III fighter and KFX are required to carry and launch the next-generation indigenous supersonic antiship missile currently under development, based on the licensed Russian Yakhont missile tech and is expected to weigh around the same as Yahkhont/Brahmos. Currently only F-15K is able to carry this 2.5~3 ton missile, and F-35 may not be able to operate this one along with 2.2 ton GBU-28 bunker buster also being bought in large quantity by Korean air force to deal with North Korean underground facility.

You have a similar case with Indian MRCA. Indian air force wants to operate its Brahmos missile from the winner of MRCA competition, which favors Mig-35 selection over smaller rivals.
 
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gf0012-aust       10/21/2009 3:17:56 PM
again, I pointed out 2 months ago via a Korean correspondent in DN that KFX was flagged as being delayed and/or rescoped as it was poor value for money (VFM being a baseline criteria in procuremen)

its also unable to carry yakhont class weapons.  

btw neither can the F-22
 
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SlowMan       10/21/2009 3:35:38 PM
@ gf0012-aust

> I pointed out 2 months ago via a Korean correspondent in DN that KFX was flagged as being delayed

Korean congress's defense sub-committee blasted DoD for the KFX program delays and they urged DoD  to move it forward now during its annual review like a week ago.

So we have a weird case of congress actually urging the acceleration of project and DoD trying to delay the project to raise fund for the president's pet project, the infamous $24 billion 1,000 km long Grand Canal to be dug out in just 3 years before he lives office.

> and/or rescoped as it was poor value for money (VFM being a baseline criteria in procuremen)

F-35's even poor value for money.

1. Expensive maintenance required at LM's Japanese shop.
2. What do you do now with useless F-35 in the event of Grand Naval Showdown.
3. Unable to carry Yakhont-class missile and GBU-28 bunker buster.

> its also unable to carry yakhont class weapons.

Super Hornet cannot carry the Yakhont class anti-ship missile in the centerline hardpoint? 
 
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warpig       10/21/2009 3:38:42 PM
Who says the Koreans are getting GBU-28s?  The only foreign sale of GBU-28s that I can remember hearing of was 100 of them to Israel a few years ago.  South Korea would be only the second foreign sale of them.
 
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gf0012-aust       10/21/2009 3:44:11 PM
The RKAF regards KFX as a F-16 class asset.
The RKAF (and this is the same AF general on the assessment team who selected the F-15) that it will not meet deployment time due to timelines.

WTF would you know about VFM when the assessment criteria for JSF is in the order of 50,000 lines and NONE of it is in the public domian - and NONE of it has ever been released or leaked by ANY one from the consortium or the vendors.

you don't understand the basics and you're crapping to all and sdundry (again)

grow up
 
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SlowMan       10/21/2009 3:45:27 PM
@ warpig

> Who says the Koreans are getting GBU-28s

< link >
 
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SlowMan       10/21/2009 3:53:43 PM
@ gf0012-aust

> The RKAF regards KFX as a F-16 class asset.

Yes, "Low" of High-Low mix. The same people whose idea of F-16 class was really F/A-18.

> it will not meet deployment time due to timelines.

Hence the pressure from the congress to not delay any more.

> WTF would you know about VFM when the assessment criteria for JSF is in the order of 50,000 lines  and NONE of it is in the public domian

F-X III assessment criteria is not JSF  assessment criteria. I am talking about F-X III assessment criteria, not JSF assessment criteria.

I learned about this Yakhont class missile carriage requirement just recently and this was partly the reason why the minimum thrust was set at 50,000 lbs. F-35 cannot carry something like a Yakhont class missile.
 
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warpig       10/21/2009 4:39:28 PM

@ warpig



> Who says the Koreans are getting GBU-28s



<link >


Well, that's a nice wish.  I hope it comes true some day.

 
 
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SlowMan       10/21/2009 4:46:17 PM
@ warpig

> Well, that's a nice wish.  I hope it comes true some day.

Already reported by AFP. < link >
 
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sentinel28a       10/21/2009 7:27:43 PM
As much as it pains me to agree with SlowMan, he's right--the GBU-28 has been in the ROKAF inventory for awhile now.  If anybody needs a bunker-buster, it's South Korea.
 
My question is--why the hell do you want a monster like the Yakhont when a Harpoon or two will do the same job?  In a "Grand Naval Showdown" scenario, Japan's not going to have the farking Yamato out there.  Their largest surface combatant are the Hyuga-class and their successors, which still won't be much bigger that British Harrier-carriers.  If the Japanese are stupid enough to risk them in the Tsushima Strait, where land-based air can easily get to them, then they're going to learn the same lesson they taught the British back in December 1941.  The only thing Korea would be facing would be Aegis-class destroyers--and if I'm the ROKAF, I want something that can fire four Harpoons at a naval group, not one Yakhont.  A ton of Harpoons could saturate the Aegis enough that some will get through.  The Yakhont/Brahmos only makes sense if you're going after big ships like carriers.
 
Of course, this is a bit of a moot point, since the only place the Grand Naval Showdown exists is in ultra right-wing Korean fantasies.
 
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SlowMan       10/21/2009 10:38:59 PM
@ sentinel28a
 
> why the hell do you want a monster like the Yakhont when a Harpoon or two will do the same job?

The target for Yakhont is an Aegis destroyer. Plus Japanese have their own supersonic antiship missile under testing at the moment.

> In a "Grand Naval Showdown" scenario, Japan's not going to have the farking Yamato out there.

No, but a surface fleet of roughly 40 destroyers. Under the worst case scenario of three escort fleets + backup coastal units, there would be 6 Aegis destroyers and 6 16DDGs, which also have advanced radars. This is a very hard opponent to crack.

Korean Navy announced plans to construct 6 more SPY-1F equipped Aegis destroyers to bring up their Aegis strength to 9, plus 9 more normal DDGs(SM-2 equipped and data linked to Aegis system, but do not carry Aegis radar themselves) for a total of 18 "front line" heavy destroyers. In addition, their FFX frigates will be equipped with 16 antiship missiles each to form the secondline, their job is to launch Yakhont from the "second line", away from the range of JMSDF antiship missiles.

Under the original Grand Naval Showdown scenario, the antiship missile count was around 600. Under the revised Grand Naval Showdown scenario, the count has been raised to 1,000, a mix of simultanous high(Yakhont) and low(SSM-700K) attacks to saturate and crack JMSDF air defense.
 
The reason Korean Navy is adding 6 more Aegis destroyers is simple; they also expect JMSDF to launch high(SSM-3/ASM-3) and low(SSM-2/ASM-2) attacks. 

> If the Japanese are stupid enough to risk them in the Tsushima Strait

The expected battleground is around Liancourt Rocks.

> A ton of Harpoons could saturate the Aegis enough that some will get through.

Well, combined JMSDF fleet would have 12 Aegis and Aegis-like destroyers.

> Of course, this is a bit of a moot point, since the only place the Grand Naval Showdown exists is in ultra right-wing Korean fantasies.

I too was very surprised to learn of this revised Grand Naval Showdown battle plan, that involves additional antiship missiles launched from FFX to raise the antiship missile count. Now we are talking about a battle scenario where close to 2,000 antiship missiles flying from both side. A true Grand Naval Showdown indeed.
 
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warpig       10/22/2009 1:09:04 AM

@ warpig



> Well, that's a nice wish.  I hope it comes true some day.



Already reported by AFP. <link >


 
That's great, it's already been reported that Washington has agreed to sell them to South Korea.  Hopefully, we'll actually do it soon.

 
 
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sentinel28a       10/22/2009 2:01:33 PM
The expected battleground is around Liancourt Rocks.
 
Which is still well within land-based air range, like all of the Sea of Japan.  ROKAF F-15Ks and P-3s could easily reach the area to drop off Harpoons or GBUs.  It would be suicide to operate a carrier in those waters if your opponent has anything resembling a decent antiship defense, which the ROK has.
 
Which is why Japan wouldn't do that, and probably why they don't intend to.  I realize you'll never be convinced of this, SlowMan, since facts should never get in the way of a cool wargame scenario.  I admit I always thought a German invasion of Savannah, GA on Panzer General II was a lot of fun, instead of the suicide run it would actually have been.
 
 
 
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SlowMan       10/22/2009 2:35:11 PM
@ sentinel28a

>  ROKAF F-15Ks and P-3s could easily reach the area to drop off Harpoons or GBUs.

And so will JASDF F-2s and F-4s. Both side will be air launching several hundred anti-ship missiles against each other.

>  It would be suicide to operate a carrier in those waters

22DDH is for the defense of Okinawa and Senkaku, not for operation within the Sea of Japan, at least not until the second Chinese aircraft carrier group starts operating from the North Korean port of Najin that China just leased.

>  Which is why Japan wouldn't do that, and probably why they don't intend to.

There is no other way to settle this dispute. Diplomacy is not an option. International arbitration is not an option(Hell, the US bailed out, saying you guys are on your own). The only possible solution understood by either side is a settlement by military action.
 
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SlowMan       10/29/2009 11:05:49 AM
Lockheed throws in more bones into Korean F-X III competition < link >
 
-  First delivery of 2014(An early block version which must be upgraded later, I presume)
-  Italian-style Final Assembly Plant in Korea to ease the Korean fear of having to fly to Japan to get F-35 maintained(This is unacceptable).
- 2nd tier subcontract work
 
 I presume Lockheed's sale term for Japan's F-X competition is similar. Does Lockheed really plan to have two final assembly plants so close to each other?
 
 
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StevoJH       10/29/2009 12:16:48 PM
The link you posted.
Lockheed offers 2014 delivery date for South Korea's first F-35s

Lockheed Martin remains confident that South Korea will select its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter for the third phase of its F-X competition, with the company saying that Seoul could even get access to the aircraft from 2014 if required.

"The F-35 is the best value fighter for South Korea. The country has received a classified briefing, and studies are under way to see if the aircraft can fit the various capabilities required by the air force. This will continue into 2010," says Steve O'Brien, Lockheed's vice-president of F-35 business development.

"There are slots available in 2014 for the first FMS [Foreign Military Sales] customer to take delivery of the F-35. We've given a number of different briefings to different customers on this issue, and it is up to the customers if they would like to come on board."

Just as it has with Japan, Lockheed is dangling the prospect of South Korean industry possibly participating in the F-35 programme by becoming second-tier suppliers. It could also allow some form of assembly work to take place in South Korea, similar to its agreement with Italy.

Lockheed Martin
 © Lockheed

South Korea is looking to buy around 60 fighters through its next F-X programme. However, there are worries in Seoul about possible delays to the F-35 programme, and that early versions of the type may not be as sophisticated as later models.

That could pave the way for Boeing and its new F-15 Silent Eagle, which the company has proposed with countries such as South Korea in mind. The F-15K was selected for the first two phases of South Korea's F-X competition, and Boeing is pushing Seoul to consider the F-15SE as an alternative to the F-35.

Industry sources say Boeing is willing to offer South Korea some work in the co-development of the stealth technology that it plans to use in the F-15SE, an offer that could help the country when it begins to work on its proposed KF-X light fighter.

"Boeing looks forward to Korea's anticipated competition. We are developing an advanced F-15, which we hope will fulfil Korea's defence capabilities and needs for many years to come," says Greg Laxton, vice-president Korea business development at Boeing Integrated Defense Systems.

"We are committed to building on the success of the F-15K next fighter I and II programmes, by working with our Korean industry partners to continue to strengthen Korea's aerospace industry."

Lockheed points out that only the F-35 and its F-22 Raptor are truly fifth-generation stealth fighters, while the F-15SE has only some "stealth elements", a fact that Boeing accepts.

"Stealth systems must be designed into the aircraft. This cannot be replicated in fourth-generation fighters. And the F-35 is about 10 years ahead of the F-22 in this regard," says O'Brien. "We won't comment on our competitors' products, but what I know is that the US government is going to purchase only fifth-generation aircraft and that is the F-35."
It says "some" assembly work, nothing about the scope or what they would be assembling. The interesting thing is, with all the work allocations already complete, any assembly or parts manufacturing taking place in korea would have to occur at the expense of Lockheed Martin, as I doubt any of the other companies involved would want to give up any of their workshare. Plus there is the sticky issue of IP.
 
Have a nice thread, I wont be posting here again.
 
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