Dassault VP : Rafale's successor will join Eurofighter Consortium-like Euro Consortium.

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gf0012-aust 10/25/2009 3:28:05 PM

And btw , what is "the garbage that extrudes from it" ? Are you talking about the RAM coated refueling probe ?

sweet mordred, rcs management is about reflection and refraction returns. you just can't add ram coatings to protruding body parts and expect a reduction in signal return.

there are 3 different types of protrusions in front of that c0ckpit - everyone of them will generate a return, one of them will be amplifiying more than the others - they cannot all be managed by ram. it is literally signal clutter city behind the radome.

ram has to be sympathetically applied - its not a grail outcome

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Lynstyne 10/25/2009 3:46:23 PM

And btw , what is "the garbage that extrudes from it" ? Are you talking about the RAM coated refueling probe ?

sweet mordred, rcs management is about reflection and refraction returns. you just can't add ram coatings to protruding body parts and expect a reduction in signal return.

ram has to be sympathetically applied - its not a grail outcome

Ive never seen the front of the rafale up close, i noted the probe before, but the other 2 units (I assume ones OSF) look as though they were stuck on a an after thought. Now im no expert on LO tech but they look like big reflectors to me. im sure the TIFFY has a cleaner nose.

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gf0012-aust 10/25/2009 3:58:39 PM

Now returning to the refuelling probe I just cannot believe that its RAM coated, before i am able to accept this im really going to have to ask if some one can present any evidence on this. it just goes againt all my instincts -

if it is then its a woftam as any advantages are negated by the other sensor protrusions. you don't coat probes when the issue is design - thats why probes are either retractable or a flush and capped. in the case of Rafale, there is no room in the design to do either, so its the least preferred option to use - but has to be used.

besides, RAM is not coated on everything, its used on specific points to effect return events (eg on a join, or to reflect into another body shape etc...) there is nowhere for any signals to be redirected on that probe even if it was coated.

its a nonsense and demonstrates a complete misunderstanding about how RAM is applied and why and where it gets applied.

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Lynstyne 10/25/2009 4:12:15 PM

Im no expert in fact once ive said ram is used on the leadinng edge ive just about exhausted my knowledge.

So leaving out all the angles etc as to why you wouldnt, just from a purely electrical point of view It seems to me that RAM would be a poor electrical conductor - not the best property in that location in my view.

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Bluewings12 10/25/2009 6:14:46 PM

Lynstyne :

""Now returning to the refuelling probe I just cannot believe that its RAM coated""

??? Can 't you see the RAM material around the probe ? It is of a different gray and is at least half a centimeter thick (look at the base) .

Now , if the posters think that they know better than Dassault who designed the probe and the RAM coating material , feel free to send them a mail . Do the posters have an anechoic chamber and a Rafale at home to dare discussing Dassault 's designs ?

gf :

""sweet mordred, rcs management is about reflection and refraction returns. you just can't add ram coatings to protruding body parts and expect a reduction in signal return.""

This is what RAM is for gf . You couldn 't be more wrong in fact ... You apply RAM material where your EM spikes are like wing edges , air intakes lips and along the first part of the "S" , protuding body parts , etc .

RAM don 't work against reflection but for absorbtion . Whatever the "EM hitting angle" is , RAM absorbs most of the radiation and diffuse the rest in every direction in a chaotic manner . This is why the F-22 is a real VLO aircraft , not only because of its shape but because of its almost complete coating .

Having a protuting refueling probe is not wise but adding RAM is the least we can can do and it works . If not , it wouldn 't be RAM coated , CQFD .

""there are 3 different types of protrusions in front of that c0ckpit - everyone of them will generate a return, one of them will be amplifiying more than the others - they cannot all be managed by ram. it is literally signal clutter city behind the radome.""

The OSF IR and TV cams are probably giving a 5 inches square increase in the RCS from the front at 25km . Even for the best Aesa radar , it would be a small signal return to take onboard . Surely , it adds a bit to the overall RCS of the aircraft at close range but not by much , not by much .

We also have to keep in mind that if the opposite fighter is flying lower than the Rafale , the OSF will not be visible on radar (if it can be detected) at close range because it is on top of the nose , if the opposite fighter is flying higher than the Rafale , the OSF will blend into the nose . In fact , it is a rather discret and secure design and when you know the usefuleness of the OSF , you don 't hesitate : you field it .

Cheers .

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jackjack 10/25/2009 7:45:23 PM

LOL, continuously repeating the lie, doent make it true

but the good news is that future rafles will only have one sensor blob infront of the cockpit, as the ir osf is discontinues as its obsolete and the hole covered with a panel

great, another one of rafales dodgy panels for radar to bounce off

ps, i have google translate this french site, and thankfully these trolls arent all the frogs and common sense is often posted and they slap their own trolls incliding bw

infact they arent a bad batch of guys and i have joined and posted

http://www.air-defense.net/for...

h*tp://www.air-defense.net/for...

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french stratege 10/25/2009 8:07:35 PM

"if it is then its a woftam as any advantages are negated by the other sensor protrusions. you don't coat probes when the issue is design - thats why probes are either retractable or a flush and capped. in the case of Rafale, there is no room in the design to do either, so its the least preferred option to use - but has to be used. "

Initially Dassault prefered a retractable probe but french air force prefer a non retractable one.

Indeed it adds security on long range mission over sea or not, since a retractable probe can be blocked sometime.

Now, for RCS reduction, it is a question of calculations of echo return which needs computing power, tolerance and materials including RAM materials.

A protusion can be optimized in geometry or can be transparent (for exemple using glass or kewlar fiber) or coated with RAM

Of course tou have to minimize protusions, but it depends what RCS you want.

It your goal is to achieve only a 0,1 or 0,05 m² RCS in front, you can accept some protuberances and external loads if not too numerous.

"besides, RAM is not coated on everything, its used on specific points to effect return events (eg on a join, or to reflect into another body shape etc...) there is nowhere for any signals to be redirected on that probe even if it was coated."

its a nonsense and demonstrates a complete misunderstanding about how RAM is applied and why and where it gets applied.

I have difficulties to understand that since it is right that no planes apply RAM everywhere.

RAM is applied where it matters and this is calculated by RCS simulation software.

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french stratege 10/25/2009 8:17:59 PM

If it is then its a woftam as any advantages are negated by the other sensor protrusions. you don't coat probes when the issue is design - thats why probes are either retractable or a flush and capped. in the case of Rafale, there is no room in the design to do either, so its the least preferred option to use - but has to be used. "

Initially Dassault prefered a retractable probe but french air force prefer a non retractable one.

Indeed it adds security on long range mission over sea or not, since a retractable probe can be blocked sometime.

Now, for RCS reduction, it is a question of calculations of echo returns which needs computing power, tolerance and materials including RAM materials.

A protusion can be optimized in geometry or can be transparent (for exemple using glass or kevlar fiber) or coated with RAM

Of course you have to minimize protusions, but it depends what RCS you want.

It your goal is to achieve only a 0,1 or 0,05 m² RCS in front, you can accept some protuberances and external loads if not too numerous.

its a nonsense and demonstrates a complete misunderstanding about how RAM is applied and why and where it gets applied.

I have difficulties to understand that, since it is right that no stealth planes apply RAM everywhere.

RAM is applied where it matters and this is calculated by 3 dimensional RCS simulation software

If fact it is a nation computing power of its greatest computers plus test facilities like great anechoic chambers, which let it to achieve superior level of stealth.

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jackjack 10/25/2009 8:29:05 PM

my novice opinion is, no doubt there are inplace plans to apply ram and flush out the panel gaps for use in a high conflict situation, but at this stage all i can see is pixie dust

do you know of any close up photos of raphels deployed in a-stan, this will give an idea to whats going on

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gf0012-aust 10/25/2009 9:19:22 PM

you test signal returns via a pole test. anechoic chambers do bugger all to test the full spectrum

Having a protuting refueling probe is not wise but adding RAM is the least we can can do and it works . If not , it wouldn 't be RAM coated , CQFD .

oh for ferks sake. will you stop this idiocy of pretending that you know about RCS management - you clearly do not. this is why I hold you in absolute contemp on these matters.

stop making things up - and for ferks sake stop pretending to know about the technology sets. RAM does not work like you say.

stop wasting bandwidth

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