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Subject: Dassault VP : Rafale's successor will join Eurofighter Consortium-like Euro Consortium.
SlowMan    10/19/2009 4:07:06 PM
New York Times article < link >

"Dassault appears to be thinking along the same lines. Eric Trappier, executive vice president at Dassault Aviation, said that Rafale?s ?successor will probably be designed through a European cooperation, from 2025.? "

So this is the end of all-French fighter aircraft.
 
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cwDeici       11/2/2009 10:38:33 AM
He has a perception of reality actually, I looked at more of FSs posts and he seems to be improving a lot by sticking to facts rather than opinions. In his case I actually buy that he has a job related to aviation. Still think he's biased though, to different degrees at different times, and I don't like his opinions (and probably him since he probably hates me by now), but it's always nice to read something from an inside source even though it's available material.
 
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cwDeici       11/2/2009 10:50:47 AM



definitely not me.  and with the greatest of respect to Kopp (although he doesn't deserve any) - what would he know about how and what the americans have done on their LO evolutions?  He has no security clearances to allow him to see any material that they've available to their military partners let alone some obsessed platform fan clubber on the internet - so he's in position to pass comment.  he's a glider pilots who's a mobile phone specialist with an academic interest in the military.  He has no clearances of any sort that would allow him to see privileged material.  his commentary about measuring signature events through his own propietary software etc just reeks of "la la" analysis.  Last time I looked, Kopp had never been on a pole test facility - let alone an anechoic chamber (which is only a partial solution to measuring signal emissions as well).  Real full blown signature tests are pole test events.  They are tested at range, the platform is movable through basically all angles of attack and can be measured in the turn.  Kopp has zero credibility - but he's excellent at attracting a specific cabal of believers. :)







Dr. Kopp is a symptom of the information vaccum surrounding secret mil tech.  Those with actual knowledge cannot openly discuss it so when someone like Dr. Kopp goes to some effort to create technical prose, fancy graphs and graphics lay people assume he is speaking with some authority.  I guess it's human nature at work, but if one is to take a robust approach to getting a complete picture it is important gather as much information as possible from as wide a variety of sources as possible and not jump to any conclusions.


 

 Frankly, even in my own profession I have seen supposed experts publish "rubbish" on best practices that have been downright wrong and not backed with rigorous research or supporting data.   


Indeed, I agree completely. In such a difficult and comprehensive field of knowledge with warded off information one can do nothing but find a wide variety of insiders to rely on for the level of understanding one wants (I personally opt for a very light one, and that mixed with a temper and subsequent overstepping my understandings by a lot to trash those who are insane has earned me more than a little enmity here).
 
The key to objectivity is evolution rather than revolution, incremental suspicion in every direction and knowledge of one's base and drift from surrounding sources to only allow oneself drift when one is aware it must be correct beyond reasonable doubt.
 
Relying on any single person is usually a bad idea, though it is a great idea to some extent if they really know what they're talking about, like Herald and gf.
 
scientific centrism takes the day. Kudos to those here who do that, it's why I bother to read here sometimes. ... Got to admit I found the rubes funny at first though.... In the sense that I wanted to see them smacked around by you other people who knew what you were talking about. But they never agree.
 
I guess that's the problem with most open forums. I've seen problems ranging from this to the other end of the spectrum.
 
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cwDeici       11/2/2009 10:58:45 AM
Agree with what is taught to them by a rightout smack to the head of course, though I once read an article that intelligence and knowledge are the very things one need to realize that one is wrong... so a fool remains a fool most often, awareness of one's idiocy is actually shown to make people smarter. There's a document on this somewhere, though I deleted it from my favorites link after reading and forwarding it.
 
(Not being introspective here which I've been a lot lately, on a different offensive note: I have a 135-145 IQ as well as Asbergers (good for opinions, not so good for social though I do very well socially actually, when I care to) and ADHD))
 
Funny thing is I've seen it the other way around. The majority disagreeing with vitriol when I said on an open rpg forum in the context of optional gender modifiers for rpgs that women have a 60% upper body strength. 
 
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cwDeici       11/2/2009 11:08:07 AM
And as usual I disclaim my multipost by adhd and the lack of an edit button, I seriously do try not to multipost and it is not my fault, as well as the lack of focus (well I could try harder there).

 
@ Bluewings12



> Not at all . Dassault will still be Leader in Europe in 2025 and by miles.



Considering how Typhoon came out to be superior to Rafale, that would mean a disaster.


Good post and overall thread... I don't see why people attack you viciously in general, I mean sure you make some lurid posts but your fundamentals are solid.
 
But yeeeah, unless the French govt makes a massive cash transfusion and guts the whole Dassault leadership after the mergers they won't make it... might even not in that dream scenario as I'm not sure the French aviation industry has the integrity needed to make a proper plane anymore.
 
Where are the managers responsible for Mirage? I'm sure they're somewhere. Merge everything and put them in charge of the human resources.
 
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sentinel28a       11/2/2009 3:13:44 PM
One thing to remember too is that salt water/air can really make a plane look filthy.  I've seen F-14s towards the end of a deployment that look just terrible.  The aircraft itself is okay, but it looks like crap.  I'm sure the same problem occurs with F-18s and Rafales.
 
Maybe this is a cheap shot, and I apologize if it is--but did Air France ever start cleaning its planes?  Seems like every time I've seen an AF bird, it looks like someone drove it through a mud puddle and washed it off with crap.
 
 
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gf0012-aust       11/2/2009 4:02:53 PM

GF you might want to take a look here:

link target="_blank">link
 
I'm going to request a response through work - at least then I have a better chance of getting an answer as they'll not think that I'm some timewaster chewing up their resources. :)

Issue 9 covers Excocet trials using the M1 and issue 11 includes a picture for AASM/Damocles testing. The other Rafale's used by Dassault were also built as part of batch 1 (B301 & 302 & C101). These aircraft started life as F1 standard (except C101) and were later upgraded to F2/F3 standard. It was stated that F1 aircraft will be directly upgraded to F3 standard from 2010, but priority was given to the upgrade of F2 aircraft. It certainly requires more work to bring F1 aircraft to F3 standard, but it's not impossible. If the plans have changed (I don't exclude that possiblity) I would like to see a source stating that.

see above.  it  might take a while depending on how fast they (dassault)  choose to respond.  my own contact within dassault indicated that it could be done, but that it wasn't cost effective.  hence why artefacts 1-10 were being mothballed with only one remaining active for continued R&D work.

he was cynical about success due to budget issues from the FrGov
 

 

 

 

 



 
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MK       11/2/2009 4:35:04 PM

link target="_blank">link


 

I'm going to request a response through work - at least then I have a better chance of getting an answer as they'll not think that I'm some timewaster chewing up their resources. :)


see above.  it  might take a while depending on how fast they (dassault)  choose to respond.  my own contact within dassault indicated that it could be done, but that it wasn't cost effective.  hence why artefacts 1-10 were being mothballed with only one remaining active for continued R&D work.


he was cynical about success due to budget issues from the FrGov

Thanks. If you are at it you might simply ask if the upgrade is funded or just planned.
 
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Das Kardinal       11/3/2009 12:58:51 AM

One thing to remember too is that salt water/air can really make a plane look filthy.  I've seen F-14s towards the end of a deployment that look just terrible.  The aircraft itself is okay, but it looks like crap.  I'm sure the same problem occurs with F-18s and Rafales.

 

Maybe this is a cheap shot, and I apologize if it is--but did Air France ever start cleaning its planes?  Seems like every time I've seen an AF bird, it looks like someone drove it through a mud puddle and washed it off with crap.

 

Of course they scrape off the mud and crap.
Where do you think the stuff Air France serves at meals comes from ? 
 
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gf0012-aust       11/3/2009 1:16:04 AM
Thanks. If you are at it you might simply ask if the upgrade is funded or just planned.

might take a few days, but will let you know.  
 
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sentinel28a       11/3/2009 2:42:38 PM
Of course they scrape off the mud and crap.
Where do you think the stuff Air France serves at meals comes from ?
 
Ouch.
 
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Hamilcar       11/3/2009 3:41:31 PM




The SM-1 hit the drone on auto. It worked even if it was bever intended to be the chaser, MK. The Mica coupldn't acquure which was why the SM-1 fired to kill the drone, instead.  The Taipei Times referred to this obliquely. The MICA was an IR version.  





The article you linked to stated nothing which supports your assertion, it claims what I have quoted and underlined. It is nowhere stated that it was a MICA IR or that its seeker failed to acquire the target. It was the SM-I whose seeker selected another target and destroyed it. You make up things here by misreading what was actually stated.
Reread MK and add up the evidence. WHY does the RoCAF not fly with MICA? Those tests were tightly controlled weapon proofs. Note that these failures were great public embarrassments? Nothing made up. The political opposition asked WHY the NT-37s and the MICA failed.

 
 
 
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Hamilcar       11/3/2009 3:43:53 PM

Jet fuel is a fairly good SOLVENT. 

 

Kerosene is also good against rust and it has been used for dry cleaning.


 

 
Some RAM is carbon based.
 
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Hamilcar       11/3/2009 3:56:23 PM

One thing to remember too is that salt water/air can really make a plane look filthy.  I've seen F-14s towards the end of a deployment that look just terrible.  The aircraft itself is okay, but it looks like crap.  I'm sure the same problem occurs with F-18s and Rafales.

 

Maybe this is a cheap shot, and I apologize if it is--but did Air France ever start cleaning its planes?  Seems like every time I've seen an AF bird, it looks like someone drove it through a mud puddle and washed it off with crap.

 

 
Do you see any frame gaps or seam MISMATCH under the weathering and field repairs? Even the sensor hump on the nose is smooth fared. Seems the ex-artillery officer shot his own Rafale argument to glory with best evidence AGAINST.
 
As for the other commentators, the only ones still speaking from knowledge PRO Rafale, are MK, Lynstyne, and Das Kardinal. 
 
 
 
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jackjack       11/4/2009 5:29:06 AM

Thanks. If you are at it you might simply ask if the upgrade is funded or just planned.



might take a few days, but will let you know.  


this might help a bit, from keypublishing, it looks to be no f1 update at this stage and strangly enough they are updating their mirage's
link
Laurent Collet-Billon. We prepare now the fourth order of rafale with deliveries scheduled from 2015. The LPM provides a clear slowdown in the rate of production for the French aircraft between 2012 and 2014, the difference being compensated by exports. However, the negotiations started, as positive as they are, will not lead early enough to ensure this balance. We must therefore adopt assumptions for the contract and subsequently proceed to a shift of pace according to embodiments of export prospects. The contract on the fourth installment incorporates this flexibility clauses quite able to cope with different possibilities of evolution.

I share your desire to transform as quickly as possible Rafale F1 Rafale F3: soon it will be less expensive it will cost. If we succeed, this will increase the number of available rafales.

The renovation of 50 to 60 Mirage 2000D require funding of around 700 million euros. I think this could actually help alleviate the late rise of the Rafale. I am not responsible for the running costs, I can not, however, whether this upgrade will not or avoid significant expenses for maintenance. I mention that I still remain vigilant to changes in the cost of ownership even if I do not control all aspects.
 
 
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gf0012-aust       11/4/2009 2:29:03 PM
unfort Dassaults response was less than detailed.  Artefact 18 was built in 2007.  That does make it an F2 as per my original comments as the first clean build F3 was only completed this year and its not number 18.  He doesn't state whether its updated to F3 standards, but as all the F2's have been completed, then it would seem so (by logic)

So, its not an early prototype.

I have asked for clarification on the status of the F1's
 
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