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Subject: USAAF 1945 VS USAF 1991. Who win? What would be your plan?
RedParadize    10/18/2009 5:24:39 PM
USAAF 1945 VS USAF 1991. Or the alternative scenario: USAAF 1945 VS USAF 20XX. Scenario is Battle of Britain alike. The 2 side have all the pilot, Ammo and infrastructure needed to support all fighter available, AA gun and SAM not allowed! You can keep or remove production capability. the alternative scenario: USAF 20XX is the same. But its more about F-22 and F-35 but without the plane that F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II will replace. Fleet at their maximum in regard of current procurement Plan Who win? What would be your plan? I admit it. It is completely irrational. But it is so hilarious when you look at the number. I have some Link that might be useful: United States Army Air Forces 1945: link United States Air Force 1991: link
 
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RedParadize    Sorry!!!   10/18/2009 5:45:44 PM
Sorry! i didn't wanted to create 3 time the same topic, When i created the it i got a error message instand of a confirmation. my mistake.

 
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sentinel28a       10/18/2009 8:03:25 PM
No sweat--it does that to me, too.
 
This is a pretty one-sided scenario.  My take would be:
 
1) Send up the F-15s.
2) Each F-15 is capable of eight kills.
3) Land and rearm the F-15s.  Send up the F-16s for grins.
4) Repeat.
 
World War II piston engined bombers and fighters against modern jets with missiles and AWACS support?  This isn't much of a fight.
 
 
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albywan       10/18/2009 8:47:30 PM
would there not be some issue with modern missilies ability to lock on against older and cololer enginered piston engined fighters and bombers?
 
Also engagement speed and how much to lead a older slower target would also raise some issues i would assume...
 
Further consideration:
the 1945 USAAF bases in a lot of cases are no longer there... where would the USAAF be based from...
 
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Hamilcar       10/18/2009 8:59:11 PM

would there not be some issue with modern missilies ability to lock on against older and cololer enginered piston engined fighters and bombers?

Sidewinder will home on a hot piston engine. AMRAAM doesn't care, It uses radar.

Also engagement speed and how much to lead a older slower target would also raise some issues i would assume...

 Thar would be an issue for guns. Missiles, you would have to adjust for your  closure rates and approach aspects. Chase would be a good option.

Further consideration:

the 1945 USAAF bases in a lot of cases are no longer there... where would the USAAF be based from...
  
And even if they were, they soon would not be as the best place to kill an air force is on the ground. Sounds like A-10 work to me?.  .
 
 
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RedParadize       10/18/2009 11:22:44 PM
Ya, in Air to air fight, its pretty one-sided. the only hope for WW2 era plane is to attack the airfield. i think the only way to do it is a single wave.
 
I wonder if Amraam and AIM-9 are effective against WW2 era plane...  they where much more damage resistant then modern plane. end even the targeting could be a problem. specialy if you have 15 000 of them in range.
 
BTW decoy where already used in WW2 to cheat radar.  it was simple aluminium paper band droped trough the window lol
 
Lets do some math:
 
Modern:
740 F-15  X  9 missiles= 6480
927 F-16s  X  8 missiles= 7416
a total of  13896 missiles 
Plus the gatling of cource... but at that range they could get hit too. Lets exclude gun for now
 
WW2:
If you dont include recon, transport and other:
Very heavy bombers



2,865
Heavy bombers



11,065
Medium bombers



5,384
Light bombers



3,079
Fighters



16,799
 
Total of 39192 potential target, with that much of plane you can expect to lose some due to reliability problem on the first wave. Some ace and lucky pilot may succeed to shoot down modern plane, but since modern side plane will stay out of range, its not gonna happen.
 
100% of kill probability:
39192planes-13896missiles= 25296plane remaning
50%  of kill probability:
13896missiles ÷ 2= 6948
39192planes-6948missiles=32244
 
If all plane where in flight before the first strike and if airfields are at an average range of 500 km. and with an slowest top speed of about 450 km/h for ww2 bomber,  its gona take about 66min to be on top of Modern Airfeild Its mean that Modern plane may not have the time to rearm and do a second attack. If they land they have good chance to get bombed. WW2 bomber where far from accurate. But with enough of them i guess its not unresonable to expect a high infrastructure damage. Alot of airfields would be destroyed. Some of the fighter may land on road, but cant operate from it. the rest of the plane would have to rearm from the remaning airbase.
 
Modern B-52, B-1B and B-2 would have nothing to fear once in flight, and are much more accurate. they could even shoot cruise missile from the top of their own airfeild. Alot of WW2 side airfields would be destroyed. But, unlike the modern conterpart, can land and operate on roughly prepared field.

From that point, its hard to tell who have the advantage. but i dont think its one sided. If you play with the distance between airbase, more far they are, more advantageous it is for modern side. And if Plane have to take off first, thats another story. 39192 plane would thake f
 
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Hamilcar       10/18/2009 11:25:21 PM
Sidewinder packs the wallop of a five inch artillery shell. It will blow those kites to bits.
 
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RedParadize       10/18/2009 11:35:19 PM
I forgot,
 
Hamilcar:
 Thar would be an issue for guns. Missiles, you would have to adjust for your  closure rates and approach aspects. Chase would be a good option. 
 
I just want to point out something:
Trying to get behind a WW2 fighter that go at 700km/h with a F-16 hornet that go at 1200km/h seem be a bit difficult.

 
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Hamilcar       10/18/2009 11:52:55 PM
Your assumption is incorrect. Killed by a Sparrow from an F-15.
 
 
This is a Hughes 500:
 
 
 
This is an F-15.
 
 
 
It used a bomb for that air to air kill.

 
 
 
 
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RedParadize       10/19/2009 12:18:35 AM
 My point was more about WW2 fighter can easily out-turn modern plane because of its lower speed. so at some extent its will be difficult to get behind and chace it.
 
About the "Sidewinder packs the wallop of a five inch artillery shell. It will blow those kites to bits."
 
Allot of WW2 Fighter where armored, and AIM-9 use fragmentation warhead. But ya, in most case scenario ww2 fighter go down.
 
Against Bomber, some of them did survive a direct hit from a 88m artillery shell.
 
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Hamilcar       10/19/2009 12:22:03 AM
I think I've said all that I need to say here. Enjoy your topic. I hope you learn something  
 
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