The death of a fighter

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french stratege 10/19/2009 7:35:27 PM

Fifth generation BW can be differentiated from 4th generation:

Multicaptor

Total networking

A magnitude better in survivability vs air defense and EW/IR threats

Of course they are still improving dynamic capabilities (like supercruise or instantaneous turn rate) except for F35

F18E is single captor (its very good AESA radar), as 4th generation networking (no track fusion of its captors), and just LO

F35E, F22, Rafale are:

1)multicaptor: IRST (not F22), radar and very new and unique to 5th generation, a passive RF location systems with interferometric ESM/RWR with precise location.

2)5th generation datafusion of tracks including those given by ESM

3)A magnitude better in survivability by VLO (F35, and even more F22), or LO+3D adaptative ECM (Rafale)

However an embedded VLO approach seems more robust (and expensive).But it has to be proven.

4th Generation:

F18E has only self protection RWR and ECM.Gripen is similar to F18E i.e single captor and LO.

(Gripen NG will have a 5th generation avionic but not integrated RF management).

BTW F16E has also IRST , radar and, a passive RF location systems with interferometric ESM/RWR with precise location and datafusion of tracks, but however lack LO and has only selfprotection ECM.

Eurofighter is like F16E but with LO but not integrated RF management.Of course Eurofighter has still outstanding airframe performance probably slightly better than Rafale at supersonic speed.

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sentinel28a 10/19/2009 7:45:24 PM

FS, I don't pretend to know anything about ECM or radar lobes or things of that nature. I'm not an aviation engineer. I'm an aviation enthusiast--a fanboy, if you like. But I admit it. I've learned a lot about the Rafale from you and BW, and it's reinforced my already high opinion of the aircraft.

However, not too long ago both of you were claiming that the Rafale was the best 4th gen fighter out there. Then it was the best 4.5 gen fighter. Now it's 5th gen. If Rufus or any other poster were to come on here and claim that the F-22 and F-35 were 6th gen, you two would be on here seconds later claiming the Rafale was 6th gen as well. If LockMart released a statement saying that the F-35 is going to be powered by Cat-Buttered Toast perpetual drive, you two would be on here claiming that the Rafale also has Cat-Buttered Toast, or will within two years, and it will be better because the Cats are mean-ass Parisian alley cats and the Buttered Toast is taken from Normandy cows.

You want to know why the Rafale threads died a blessed and overdue death? It was because people were getting sick of the "ME TOO!" screaming from you and BW about the Rafale. The crazy thing is, you and BW may be right--maybe the Rafale is the best 4/4.5/5/whatever fighter on the market. But you wrapping a tricolor around everyone's heads and beating us with Dassault's latest press release isn't going to convince us of this. My guess is if the Typhoon was being discussed here, you wouldn't give a damn. You care about the Rafale because it's French...and that seems to be the overriding factor here.

If you don't believe me, look at it this way: how many "F-22s Can Kill Everything" threads have we had on SP? I'm reasonably sure we didn't have six going at once.

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french stratege 10/19/2009 8:10:47 PM

sentinel28a

I have no problem to discuss with you.

4th generation or 5th is a marketing term mainly.

My previous post show a continuity between generation as F16E for exemple has clearly a early 5th generation avionic but not a 5th generation survivability.

To be clear I was in doubt for a time in our will to fund properly Rafale roadmap in this decade and it was difficult to speak about future developments.

Rafale F1 was not better than a F18E for sure.PESA radar of shorter range, no datalink, but LO plus self protection even it has interferometric detector.An interim aircraft which could been described at 4th at most.

Rafale F2 is first developped standard and clearly 4,5+ th.Its PESA radar is not an handicap vs a F18E or a SU30/35 considering LO+Spectra.

Rafale F3 is first fully developped standard and clearly 4,5++th with AESA

Rafale post F3 will be the first 5th ready for 2014 I think.

Remember that if you offer Rafale for export without full Spectra features, or with an other ECM suit, it is downgraded to 4/4,5th generation.

Like for F35 for export, we know very few about Rafale various combinations of RCS and ECM +signature management.

And certainly France will not give the same combination what she uses on its nuclear deterrent Rafale F3.

What we have in the pipe above basic F3 standard, are AESA, OSF2 (IRST NG), DDM NG, improvement in stealth, improvement of Spectra, better engine, new HMS, DIRCM, conformal wing radars, Satellite link etc..

In bold it is already funded by french state.

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french stratege 10/19/2009 8:21:38 PM

Eurofighter is evolving and a very good aircraft with outstanding supersonic performance.However it has no initial structural optimisation for A to G and no equivalent signature management.And it will probably not have major refit except for electronic.

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Bluewings12 10/20/2009 1:52:51 PM

The thread has changed of topic , we should better create a new thread but people would again scream "enough !

So , let 's just keep it this way .

FS :

""As well I have never say that Rafale is better than F35 or more advanced.""

Well , both you and I have already made some points in favor of the Rafale and against the F-35 .

I still hold to what I said .

To me , the SVTOL (Short Vertical Take Of and Landing) F-35 will have many problems and is probably bound to be a disaster in maintenance costs and availability , I could bet a month wedge on it . Then , we have absolutly no idea on how the fighter will perform when heavily loaded (if it can) at any altitude and what its RCS will be .

You know what FS , I wouldn 't like to be the UK Driver who will take off from the futur UK HMS Carrier with the F-35 loaded with external fuel tanks and stores and fly against something like Russia or China ! Not for all the gold in the World !

Cheers .

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sentinel28a 10/20/2009 2:20:56 PM

Let me guess. The obvious solution would be to buy...(drum roll)...Rafales!

Bluewings, the Bill Gunston of the internet set.

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Bluewings12 10/20/2009 5:29:54 PM

sentinel :

""Let me guess. The obvious solution would be to buy...(drum roll)...Rafales!""

No , not at all . What I am saying is the Navalized F-35-B (STOVL) is going to be a nightmare to use , I am not saying that it will be a "piece of sh*t" and people should change Carrier design and buy Rafale . This is not what I 'm saying sentinel .

Please re-read what I said , yes I have strong doubts about the B version but the A and C versions sounds good , so far , but don 't hold your breath ... Until I see a F-35-A and/or C with external stores making 5g turns at Mach 1.2 @5000ft or at Mach 1.4@ 35000ft , allow me to doubt .

To be honest with you sentinel , I simply can 't trust things like this :

""The USAF has conducted an analysis of the F-35's air-to-air performance against all 4th generation fighter aircraft currently available, and has found the F-35 to be at least four times more effective. Maj Gen Charles R. Davis, USAF, the F-35 program executive officer, has stated that the "F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois"""

because of 3 main reasons :

-1) the F-35 is not an interceptor and will not be used as such , it will be used as a multirole aircraft . That means with a low AtoA missile load (unless to carry external stores which bring the RCS and the flight characteristics down) . I also have to remind people that the range of the F-35 with internal fuel only is in between average to poor , dependings on the internal load and mission planning .

-2) the most strongest enemies of the West will not be using 4th gen fighter in 2015-2020 .

-3) as it stands , 4 SU-35s with good drivers (usual CAP) would probably archive an equal kill ratio against 4 F-35s with external stores . Against "clean" F-35s , the SU-35s would have a hard time and would have to rely on multiple salvos (they have plenty of missiles) and on sheer speed and energy (they have plenty of both) to overcome the F-35s .

To me , this US talk is nothing but false advertizing . I believe that I know what I 'm talking about because I am having a similar problem here with the SU-35 against the Rafale . More I look into the Russian fighter , more I see a very deadly threat . As far as I see it , a fighter needs 3 things and a half to defeat the SU-35 :

-1) a very good to excellent RCS and IR signature to avoid being shot at at long to very long range

-2) a powerfull ECM/ECCM suite

-3) excellent flying characteristics at any altitude or speed with or without external stores

(the half) : good fuel reserves .

The F-35 only has No 1 and 2 .

Cheers .

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usajoe1 10/20/2009 5:37:47 PM

as it stands , 4 SU-35s with good drivers (usual CAP) would probably archive an equal kill ratio against 4 F-35s with external stores . Against "clean" F-35s , the SU-35s would have a hard time and would have to rely on multiple salvos (they have plenty of missiles) and on sheer speed and energy (they have plenty of both) to overcome the F-35s .

LOL!!! why do you pull stuff out of you A@# kid? and where did you get those stupid numbers?

You are one pathetic joke!

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Heorot 10/20/2009 5:42:01 PM

Eurofighter is evolving and a very good aircraft with outstanding supersonic performance.

It certainly is! EADS have announced the development of a vectored thrust nozzle for the EJ200 engine. They have even developed and installed simulator software for it. For a video and article on the subject, see

ht*p://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/18/333501/eurojet-pushes-thrust-vectoring-technology-for-typhoon.html

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stbretnco 10/20/2009 5:59:09 PM

Which will never happen, because, as it has been explained to you hundreds, if not thousands of times, the F-35 is part of a SYSTEM, and will not operate in a vacuum.

This X F-35's vs X SU-XX's is a pile of horseshit. Many of the capabilities of BOTH aircraft are classified, the exact capabilities of the missiles are classified, and modern combat aircraft don't operate in a vacuum.

It makes for an amusing fanboy argument, but in reality means absolutely nothing.

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