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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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burjegol       5/2/2010 10:15:15 PM

A late model P-47 with paddle blades could outclimb and outdive just about anything. Robert Johnson stated that once they got the paddle blades he had no trouble outclimbing Spitfires....the P-47 couldn't climb as steeply...but in actual climb rate it was substantially faster. With these advantages you don't need to be manuaverable...you can set up the terms of the fight in most cases...and in a worst case scenario the plane was tough enough to bring you home.

I think it was Priller (One of the High Scoring Luftwaffe Western Front Aces anyway) who stated that he had no problems with P-51's as they came apart quite easily after a few cannon hits. If I had to fly a WW2 fighter I would prefer the P-47...my chances of surviving ALL types of missions were much better.

Sirs, twas Johnson in his book thunderbolt said: "He caught up with the jerry. he climbed up hard but with the new paddle blades, the jug did not let go (p-47 c).  He flipped and dive. the german was good, one of the very best, BUT THE DIVE WAS HIS MISTAKE. Needless to say, he bagged the german. it was also in this book wherein he narrates that his plane was used by a polish flyer as he was not on sked to fly. the polish went missing from the formation, only to be found by his squadron mates on the deck, matching the fw 190 turn for turn as his guns jammed. the polish pilot was trying to run out of gas the german over his own base, 350 miles from their base. And, Johnson received 21 20 mm hits, more than 100 7.62 slugs ( a beating he got from eggon meyer a 60 plus kill veteran at that time) yet the jug brought him home.
 
The p-47s and p-38s with its novice pilots slugged it out with the best  german pilots facing them over the channel (the yellow noses of the JG 26, known as the abbeville boys) and prevailed (johnson's 5th victory was a 200 kill veteran from the east), pushed them back to the german borders, ready for picking when the p-51s entered the fray. by then, most of its veteran pilots were downed by the yankee fliers gaining combat experience. hence, the p-51 pilots roaming above germany encountered gaggles of fighters usually led by one or 2 experienced pilots, the rest novice. an easy  pickings for the likes of godfrey, gentile, yaeger, old crow anderson, candelaria, don bryan and the likes.
 only the 56th FG did not transitioned from p-47 to p-51. twas them who tamed the beast in the jug. and methink there was also on FG who transitioned from p-51 to p-47.
I did not say the the jug was better than the p-51, but combat record shows it could be on par with the mustangs.
 


 
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Cromwell       5/21/2010 5:56:10 PM
A late model P-47 with paddle blades could outclimb and outdive just about anything. Robert Johnson stated that once they got the paddle blades he had no trouble outclimbing Spitfires...
 
No, a Spitfire II from 1940 could outclimb any P47 ever built, including all the so-called 'lightweight' models, with ease.  Johnson's story was simply made up, and he comes across as a complete blowhard.
 
Cromwell 
 
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LB    Rate of Climb   5/21/2010 10:03:39 PM
The numbers I've seen have the Spit IA at 2,530 ft/min, II at 3,025, VC at 2,900, and IX at 4,500.  The P-47D-20 rate of climb was 2,750 and the P-47D-25 was 3,120.  These numbers all vary by altitude but stating a Spit II can outclimb any model P-47 seems a tad false.  Later model P-47's have superior climb rates as well.
 
 
A late model P-47 with paddle blades could outclimb and outdive just about anything. Robert Johnson stated that once they got the paddle blades he had no trouble outclimbing Spitfires...

 

No, a Spitfire II from 1940 could outclimb any P47 ever built, including all the so-called 'lightweight' models, with ease.  Johnson's story was simply made up, and he comes across as a complete blowhard.

 

Cromwell 


 
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earlm       5/21/2010 11:57:23 PM

A late model P-47 with paddle blades could outclimb and outdive just about anything. Robert Johnson stated that once they got the paddle blades he had no trouble outclimbing Spitfires...

 

No, a Spitfire II from 1940 could outclimb any P47 ever built, including all the so-called 'lightweight' models, with ease.  Johnson's story was simply made up, and he comes across as a complete blowhard.

 

Cromwell 



The pilot who went up against the  best the Luftwaffe had to offer isn't the one who sounds like a blowhard.  Post some climb rate stats.
 
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Hamilcar    Performaance data    5/22/2010 1:05:47 AM




A late model P-47 with paddle blades could outclimb and outdive just about anything. Robert Johnson stated that once they got the paddle blades he had no trouble outclimbing Spitfires...



 



No, a Spitfire II from 1940 could outclimb any P47 ever built, including all the so-called 'lightweight' models, with ease.  Johnson's story was simply made up, and he comes across as a complete blowhard.



 



Cromwell 









The pilot who went up against the  best the Luftwaffe had to offer isn't the one who sounds like a blowhard.  Post some climb rate stats.

 
 
H.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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JFKY    Some of you are missing the point.   5/22/2010 10:38:51 PM
"Overall" Fighter.  And by that, there's little doubt
 
P-47.  Long-range escort, fighter and fighter-bomber.
 
Say what you want about the F-51 or the Spitfire.  They were NOT ground attack birds.
 
So for ground forces, the P-47, it does everything, not just fly a short-range interceptor mission, Spitfire or long-range fighter, F-51.
 
Naval forces, I'd go, in one sense, with the F-4 Wildcat.  Fought from 1941-45.  Faced the A6M Zero, and fought it to a standstill.  As I've said before, with the F-4 you get to Tokyo Bay, but if there is no F-4 the US loses the war in the Pacific.  It was competitive thru-out its career, in it's theatres and missions.
 
But it lacked a strike capacity.  So I'd give the nod, overall to the F-6 Hellcat.  Good fighter and by the end of the war was a very dangerous strike a/c...with bombs and with rockets.  It threatened ground and naval forces, especially with the 11" Tiny Tim rocket it achieved greater accuracy than dive bombers.  By the end of the war, Essex CVA's were carrying 36 Hellcats for fighter and ground-attack, and 36 bombers.
 
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earlm       5/22/2010 11:11:44 PM
The reason the thread is interesting is because there is no definitive answer.  IF the P-47 could land on a carrier that's it, thread done in one post.  IF the Corsair had a turbocharger and was good above 20,000 feet it would be it.
 
What's interesting is stuff like Hellcat vs Corsair, performance vs ease of use.
 
Personally I love Japanese aircraft.  IF they had more armor and were built more strongly...
 
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Galderio       5/23/2010 3:18:41 AM
"Personally I love Japanese aircraft"
 
I love them too, they maneuvered like birds and a well trained pilot was a hard target.  I think their main weakness was the lack of power and climb rate, something that was easy to explore in most situations. If they had the performance of a FW-190 they wouldn't need much armor. The Oscar was quite better than the zero on  this point.
 
 
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JFKY    Galderio   5/23/2010 9:07:20 AM
I'd debate your assertion that with "performance" you don't need armour.  In combat, YOU WILL BE HIT, no amount of "performance" is going to prevent that, as you close on the B-17/24/G4M formation you're going to take hits from the defensive gunners.  As you move into attack either the ground formation or the naval action group there will be "flak" and again you will be hit.  Lastly, 80% of all "kills" come from "bounced" unaware, meaning the attacker gets the first set of hits.
 
Performance, which has a number of technical meanings, speed, diving speed, turning radius, ability to maneuver in the vertical, whatever, does not substitute for armour.  The A6M is proof of this.  It had "performance", being speedy and agile, but US firepower, tactics, AND armour meant that until August 1942 the loss rate was about 1:1 for A6M and the F-4F.  It is a myth that the A6M "swept all before it."  It didn't.  It required special tactics, and some thought to defeat, because it did "out-perform" the F4F, but it was NOT an invincible a/c, it was all together too "vincible" if you look at the total campaign stat's concerning the A6M:F4F.
 
Bottom-Line: NO amount of "performance" allows an a/c to avoid 2cm/3.7cm/4cm flak or hits from a/c heavy machine guns or machine cannon.  Only armour can make those inevitable hits survivable.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    P-51 and ground attack......   5/23/2010 11:13:32 AM
Say what you want about the F-51 or the Spitfire.  They were NOT ground attack birds.-JFKY
 
We will leave the Spitfire out of this. The P-51/F-51 flew more ground attack missions in it's career than escort missions. I'd have to concede that the P-47 could carry a bigger bomb load under it's wing (1,000 lb each v. the Mustang's 500), but that does not mean the Mustang was not an effective strike/interdiction aircraft. In Korea the Mustang was the USAF's primary interdictor because it could carry a bigger more effective combat load than any of thier jets. It could loiter longer, and carry a powerful mix of rockets and bombs/nape for close air support.
 
Vs the P-47 the Stang lasted longer than the Jug in service, could outrange it, and could without a doubt take the fight to the ground.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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