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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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Belisarius1234    Information   2/4/2013 10:38:45 AM
 
That is by no reason a complete listing. of types, but you will notice that UK and US ordnance is not metric?
 
A 440 lber would be a 200 kg bomb.
 
Video-game Germans would bomb with that.
 
 
Note that the Germans did not use 200 kg bombs either?
 
B.
 
 
 
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45-Shooter       2/5/2013 10:58:00 PM

This is OPERATIONAL data from the USSBS which I regard as DEFINITIVE
B-17E:
Empty Weight: 33,280lb
Loaded weight: 53,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 4,000lb
Range: 1100 miles with 4,000lb

B-17F:
Empty Weight: 34,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,500lb
Max Bomb Load: 8,000lb
Range: 1,250 miles with 6,000lb

B-17G:
Empty Weight: 38,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,500lb
Max Bomb Load: 9,600lb
Range: 1200 miles with 6,000lb

B-24D:
Empty Weight: 32,605lb
Loaded weight: 71,200lb
Max Bomb Load: 12,000lb
Range: 1400 miles with 8,000lb

B-24J:
Empty Weight: 38,000lb
Loaded weight: 71,200lb
Max Bomb Load: 12,800lb
Range: 1540 miles with 8,000lb

B-29:
Empty Weight: 71,360lb
Loaded weight: 138,,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 20,000lb
Range: 1950 miles with 20,000lb

Halifax Mk.I:
Empty Weight: 33,860lb
Loaded weight: 55,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 13,000lb
Range: 980 miles with 13,000lb

Halifax Mk.III
Empty Weight: 39,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 13,000lb
Range: 1260 miles with 13,000lb

Lancaster B.I:
Empty Weight: 41,000lb
Loaded weight: 72,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 14,000lb
Range: 1040 miles with 12,000lb

Lancaster B.III:
Empty Weight: 41,500lb
Loaded weight: 72,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 14,000lb
Range: 1040...... miles with 14,000lb

Lancaster B.I (Special):
Empty Weight: 36,000lb
Loaded weight: 72,000lb
Max Bomb Load: 20,000lb - Grand Slam
Range: 660 miles with 20,000lb

Heinkel He 111H:
Empty Weight: 17,000lb
Loaded weight: 30,8650lb
Max Bomb Load: 7,165lb
Range: 910 miles with 6,000lb

Heinkel He 177A-5:
Empty Weight: 37,038lb
Loaded weight: 68,343lb
Max Bomb Load: 13,225lb
Range: 1200 miles with 11,000lb
If Stuart wants to insist that a B-17G could carry 9600 lbs of bombs, See highlited PP above! he better include all sorts of caveats, See highlited PP above! that include the special racks, See highlited PP above! the type of specialist bomb, See highlited PP above! the extreme overload condition, See highlited PP above! the short range, See highlited PP above! and the special lightening requirements, See highlited PP above! plus the usual caveat of never been inside a B-17 and knows NOTHING about what I claim to know about it.  You see, having just a little money and living almost next to Oshkosh, Wi, I've actually bought TWO rides! Well actually, I bought one and got one as a birthday pressent. However, like all old war birds that are not converted into racers, they NEVER shove the throttles more than half way open, so it was more like a peppy DC-3 than a real war bird. 

 

B.



 
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45-Shooter       2/5/2013 11:09:11 PM


He is trying to take us for fools

the 96000lbs he claims is internal and confirmed by Boeing, the Beoeing site does say 96000 but it doesnt mention that it was only internal just that it was the MAX bomb load (doesnt seem to agree with the 176000 does it)
  I would have thought that the extra zero was a typo, bu t three times?   
 
then he says 3750 failing to mention that this is ferry range and not operational
-I never said anything, I just quoted the Boeing Inc. website!
 
then he claims that he can prove the lanc didnt carry 2x grandslam yet failed to do so, No, I said "I can Prove it did not cary two Grand Slams!" then he says he provided links, I found the post and it says "search for 34 x 440 pound incendaries dropped on the Nazis" which returns vilch It worked when I posted it.
he claims that a diagram You posted, not me and that diagran does show 34 shackles! he refers to doesnt show 34 shackles that can carry 440lbs incedaries (he thinks for some reason that all the shackles can be used at use, none of these shackles couldnt possibly block each other.... I never said one way or the other, but the plane does have 34 shackles and the weight each can cary changes with batch number and date of manufacture.

as i siad he thinks we are fools

I never thought you were collectively fools. I never even thought one of you was a fool. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

 
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45-Shooter       2/5/2013 11:13:18 PM

Thanks for the above posts -
What I can discern from his activity here and elsewhere is that he is probably not worth debating - it produces understandable frustration - you can see countless examples on the web where he is recognisable merely from the large quantity of inline 'red' text that makes every conversation he is involved with extremely frustrating and fragmented. In every case I've seen he inspires anger and bewilderment in those who try to debate him - even entire forums until his inevitable exile - he does seem to believe what he is saying is the truth but puts his views in such an impossible (to debate) format that it becomes a battle of attrition where anyone with anything else to do would rapidly lose interest. 


The only reason I post in fragmented sentances is because the original post is so rambling and fragmented to start with. Sectional replies are the only rational way to do that. I use red because it is the one collor that works at my end and thus differentiates my reply from their initial post!
 
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45-Shooter       2/5/2013 11:39:01 PM


For info
 
I think he may be looking at pics from schweinfurt which shows B17s dropping incenderys but if he had checked he would have found that they were M47A4's and didnt weigh 440lbs each but 68lbs each
No, they were clusters of incendiary bombs and the weight was 440 pounds each.
 
 

the M47 was the largest indendary bomb I can find for the US of WW2, all the bigger ones were actually containers for the 4lb incendary

I cannot find a single source for the 440lbs, has anyone?

 

 

It is a package containing 21, = 3 X 7 20 pound incendiaries. I am looking for a better and still current link.

 
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45-Shooter       2/5/2013 11:48:14 PM


still no 440lbs bomb, however have found that the M17 bomb container carried 110 x 4lbs incendary bombs (but as it weighed a good 60lbs itself that takes it to around the 500lbs not the 440 quoted)

 

however these are easly idendified as they have a flat nose the full width of the bomb and no visible fuse



Lugs used in bombs are tested to ten times the bomb
load in addition they are tested in a centrifuge to twice
the bomb load.
For suspension in torpedo slings the torpedo sling
guide key found on naval bombs can be made on AN
bombs by using the base of the single suspension lug
with the lug removed by hacksaw.
To hoist bombs without hoisting lugs into naval aircraft
a hoisting lug attached to a hoisting band must be used.
These bands are re-useable.
Bombs being loaded into Army aircraft were usually hoisted using canvas slings.
Bomb bay suspension of bombs. It can be clearly seen
why suspension lugs need to be manufactured to close
tolerances.
B7 bomb shacklefor
carrying 100 to 1100lb
bombs.
B10 bomb shackle for carrying
1600lb bombs it is also
interchangeable with the B7.
D6 bomb shackle for carrying 2000 and 4000lb
bombs. They have a single suspension lug.
 
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oldbutnotwise       2/6/2013 2:54:15 AM
This is OPERATIONAL data from the USSBS which I regard as DEFINITIVE


B-17G:
Empty Weight: 38,000lb
Loaded weight: 65,500lb
Max Bomb Load: 9,600lb
Range: 1200 miles with 6,000lb

 If Stuart wants to insist that a B-17G could carry 9600 lbs of bombs,
 
My guess thats its a typo as you were saying 17600lbs not 9600, we agree that the B17 could carry 2 x disney which gets this weight (but only on special missions as the B17 with disney bombs couldnt operate with normal B17, being too slow and not beeing able to achieve the normal operating altitudes 
 
 See highlited PP above! he better include all sorts of caveats, See highlited PP above! that include the special racks, See highlited PP above!
 
that 9600 IS with wing racks (D6's)
 
the type of specialist bomb, See highlited PP above!
 
its Disney you fool
 
 the extreme overload condition, See highlited PP above!
 
the Overload is the 17600 (something not mentioned above at all!
 
 the short range, See highlited PP above!
 
what the 1200miles with ONLY 6000lbs? I think it does mention that
 
and the special lightening requirements, See highlited PP above!
 
no mention what so ever (have you actually read this post?)
 
plus the usual caveat of never been inside a B-17 and knows NOTHING about what I claim to know about it.  You see, having just a little money and living almost next to Oshkosh, Wi, I've actually bought TWO rides!
 
when are you taking them?  when you do have a look in the bomb bay
 
 
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oldbutnotwise       2/6/2013 3:08:05 AM
He is trying to take us for fools

the 96000lbs he claims is internal and confirmed by Boeing, the Beoeing site does say 96000 but it doesnt mention that it was only internal just that it was the MAX bomb load (doesnt seem to agree with the 176000 does it)
  I would have thought that the extra zero was a typo, but threetimes?   

so sue me, bearing in mind the quality of your English its bit much critizing someone elses
 
 
then he says 3750 failing to mention that this is ferry range and not operational
-I never said anything, I just quoted the Boeing Inc. website!
 
No you were either taking us for fools or you completely failed to comprehend the facts which is it?  we were saying short ranged with normal bomb load and in any oveload would have miniscule range and what do you post A FERRY range
then he claims that he can prove the lanc didnt carry 2x grandslam yet failed to do so, No, I said "I can Prove it did not cary two Grand Slams!"
 
and I said you failed to do so, which you did fail to do, and failed again here, you say you can prove it so do so, it shouldnt be hard no one actually believes it did so normally any proof would be accepted (although knowing your record I bet it will be checked for truthfulness)
 
 then he says he provided links, I found the post and it says "search for 34 x 440 pound incendaries dropped on the Nazis" which returns vilch
 
It worked when I posted it.
 
then why didnt you post a link and not ask us to search? in fatc you have done this a numbe of times, inplied that evidence exists to support your argument but never actually provice that evidence, most people would conclude that you are taking the other posters as fools at this point.
 
he claims that a diagram You posted, not me and that diagran does show 34 shackles! he refers to doesnt show 34 shackles that can carry 440lbs incedaries (he thinks for some reason that all the shackles can be used at use, none of these shackles couldnt possibly block each other.... I never said one way or the other, but the plane does have 34 shackles and the weight each can cary changes with batch number and date of manufacture.
 
No actually the US were pretty cosistant in thie shackles and only used IIRC 2 types internally however this does not mean that all shackles could be used for all bombs AT THE SAME TIME, 2x 2000lbs for example, only left room for 4x 100lbs, OR 4x 250lbs OR 2x 500lbs

as i siad he thinks we are fools

I never thought you were collectively fools. I never even thought one of you was a fool. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
not in your mounth but your posts are certainly treating us as if we are, we can rea what a web pages says and can clearly see its not what you are claiming, this indicates that either you take us for fools (not being able to check) or that you are failing to read and understand it your self!  your choice
 
 
 
 
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oldbutnotwise       2/6/2013 3:22:41 AM
For info I think he may be looking at pics from schweinfurt which shows B17s dropping incenderys but if he had checked he would have found that they were M47A4's and didnt weigh 440lbs each but 68lbs each            
No, they were clusters of incendiary bombs and the weight was 440 pounds each
 
then were is the evidence of this, I cannot find it, and in fact I cannot find a 440lbs bomb,
 
  the M47 was the largest indendary bomb I can find for the US of WW2, all the bigger ones were actually containers for the 4lb incendary I cannot find a single source for the 440lbs, has anyone?
 
It is a package containing 21, = 3 X 7 20 pound incendiaries. I am looking for a better and still current link
 
4560lbs? I thought you said 440lbs, or you now claiming 34 x 4536? a b17 carrying 142240lbs?   a but much even for your outlandish claims
 
      
what 20lbs as the us only had the two the 4lbs or the large 68lbs  te only 20lbs bomb I can find is a fragmentation bomb, also dropped in 500lbs containers (also flat nosed and distinctive)
 
So without you providing your source it is impossible to verify your statement, however evidence would tend to discounted it
 
 
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oldbutnotwise       2/6/2013 3:26:15 AM
Lugs used in bombs are tested to ten times the bomb
load in addition they are tested in a centrifuge to twice
the bomb load.
For suspension in torpedo slings the torpedo sling
guide key found on naval bombs can be made on AN
bombs by using the base of the single suspension lug
with the lug removed by hacksaw.
To hoist bombs without hoisting lugs into naval aircraft
a hoisting lug attached to a hoisting band must be used.
These bands are re-useable.
Bombs being loaded into Army aircraft were usually hoisted using canvas slings.
Bomb bay suspension of bombs. It can be clearly seen
why suspension lugs need to be manufactured to close
tolerances.
B7 bomb shacklefor
carrying 100 to 1100lb
bombs.
B10 bomb shackle for carrying
1600lb bombs it is also
interchangeable with the B7.
D6 bomb shackle for carrying 2000 and 4000lb
bombs. They have a single suspension lug.
 
Intresting (but already known) but irrelevent to the point
a point, the the D6 was external, B10 were used to carry 2000lbs when they were carried internally
 
 
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