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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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45-Shooter       1/23/2013 10:18:45 PM

I think a lot of the criticism of Harris is justified - much more generally I think a lot of these apply to an awful lot of what the RAF/Army and RN did when compared to the US forces - British wartime innovation seems to me to be mainly technological in nature (which includes code-breaking and RADAR) with wartime strategy being slow (and stubborn) to adapt to the new reality that the Germans created - IMV a lot of that is explained by the manner in which many key figures in the war were given (and managed to retain) their commissions, a legacy of our bizarre class system in which the aristocracy managed to seamlessly secure high-command throughout irrespective of ingenuity or success. ))))
you have no evidence as you fail do ANY research even when its handed to you,





Just a point to proove that I do do my own research, although I freely admit to a lack of skill at same.
"During this time, Bader crashed a Spitfire on take-off. He had forgotten to switch the propeller pitch... from coarse to fine, and the aircraft careered down the runway at 80 mph, ultimately crashing. Despite a head wound, Bader simply ran back across the airfield and got in another Spitfire for a second attempt."
This makes TWO POINTS!
1. The BoB Spitfire DID have many switches and controls that were required to be manipulated by the pilot in order to have effective change in throttle/thrust.
2. Sir Douglas Bader, a pilot of consumate skill, wrote off a Spit because of the narrow track gear and difficulty setting all the controls required to fly it successfully!
 
 
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oldbutnotwise       1/24/2013 3:05:09 AM





I think a lot of the criticism of Harris is justified - much more generally I think a lot of these apply to an awful lot of what the RAF/Army and RN did when compared to the US forces - British wartime innovation seems to me to be mainly technological in nature (which includes code-breaking and RADAR) with wartime strategy being slow (and stubborn) to adapt to the new reality that the Germans created - IMV a lot of that is explained by the manner in which many key figures in the war were given (and managed to retain) their commissions, a legacy of our bizarre class system in which the aristocracy managed to seamlessly secure high-command throughout irrespective of ingenuity or success. ))))


you have no evidence as you fail do ANY research even when its handed to you,






Just a point to proove that I do do my own research, although I freely admit to a lack of skill at same.
"During this time, Bader crashed a Spitfire on take-off. He had forgotten to switch the propeller pitch...... from coarse to fine, and the aircraft careered down the runway at 80 mph, ultimately crashing. Despite a head wound, Bader simply ran back across the airfield and got in another Spitfire for a second attempt."

This makes TWO POINTS!

1. The BoB Spitfire DID have many switches and controls that were required to be manipulated by the pilot in order to have effective change in throttle/thrust.

2. Sir Douglas Bader, a pilot of consumate skill, wrote off a Spit because of the narrow track gear and difficulty setting all the controls required to fly it successfully!

 


point 1, the pitch control was two settings course and fine  the aircraft lands and takes off with the same seting the other one beig used for econamy crusiing (see pilot notes) so it was likely (if his incident happened) that Bader assumed tat the setting was correct ad in a rush of a scramble failed to check if someone had moved it.
however as the pitch control is on the SAME contol block as the throttle it would seem odd that he didnt notice being a very experianced pilot.
 
and secondly Bader didnt fly Spits during the BoB he was assigned to Hurricane Squadrons thoughout that period so it looks like this is a myth
 
 
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Belisarius1234    About Bader...   1/24/2013 8:59:50 AM
Score one for OBNW. I checked. Bader WAS in Hurricanes. Canadian 242 Sqdn (Hurricane Mk1s) which he led.
 
His most famous one (or one of his most famous, he flew several different ones as the occasion demanded during the BoB) had the serial # LE-D V7467. That was all I could determine for sure. I have NO CONFIDENCE about the Spitfire story. Need some help with that one to prove/disprove. 
 
B.
 
 
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Schemer       1/24/2013 2:23:20 PM
Quick google gave me:
 
Not changing the prop settign will only mean relatively poor take off performance.
 
Now I do believe one would crash on take off bc of the narrow gear as it makes take off harder.
This means that all that happened was it tool longer to complete the take off and therefore the chance
of the pilot loosing control during the take off run increased.
 
 
 
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Heorot    Bader   1/24/2013 5:18:57 PM
In February 1940, Bader joined No. 19 Squadron at Duxford. At age 29 he was older than most of the other pilots in the squadron. Two months later he was appointed flight commander in 222 Squadron, another Duxford-based unit, reequipping from Blenheim bombers to Spitfires. Before he took up the appointment, Bader carelessly took off with his section with his Spitfire's propeller set to coarse pitch (used for low rpm cruise) instead of fine pitch that gave high rpm for takeoff power, and he crashed.
 
" target="_blank">link
 
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45-Shooter       1/24/2013 5:54:33 PM

Just a point to proove that I do do my own research, although I freely admit to a lack of skill at same.
"During this time, Bader crashed a Spitfire on take-off. He had forgotten to switch the propeller pitch......... from coarse to fine, and the aircraft careered down the runway at 80 mph, ultimately crashing. Despite a head wound, Bader simply ran back across the airfield and got in another Spitfire for a second attempt."
This makes TWO POINTS!
 1. The BoB Spitfire DID have many switches and controls that were required to be manipulated by the pilot in order to have effective change in throttle/thrust.
 2. Sir Douglas Bader, a pilot of consumate skill, wrote off a Spit because of the narrow track gear and difficulty setting all the controls required to fly it successfully!
point 1, the pitch control was two settings course and fine  the aircraft lands and takes off with the same seting the other one beig used for econamy crusiing (see pilot notes) so it was likely (if his incident happened) that Bader assumed tat the setting was correct ad in a rush of a scramble failed to check if someone had moved it.
however as the pitch control is on the SAME contol block as the throttle it would seem odd that he didnt notice being a very experianced pilot.
and secondly Bader didnt fly Spits during the BoB he was assigned to Hurricane Squadrons thoughout that period so it looks like this is a myth
 

The source is Bader's own Auto-bigraphy! In his own words! This was by the way, NOT during the BoB, but in the cross channel missions time just before he was shot down by what was most likely "Friendly Fire". As a second point, he was able to fly 62 sorties in 137 days. He describes how he had a relentless "Rage" against the Germans and was so desperate to "Get at them" that he was repremanded and finnally "Let off his leash" by his superiors to avoid making waves with the "Hero of the BoB"! While all of the above is interesting, the only realivant point is that a Wing Cdr could only manage one mission every 2.2 days over a period of 4-1/2 months!


 
 
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45-Shooter    Score TWO for Shooter!   1/24/2013 10:16:45 PM


Score one for OBNW. I checked. Bader WAS in Hurricanes. Canadian 242 Sqdn (Hurricane Mk1s) which he led.



 

His most famous one (or one of his most famous, he flew several different ones as the occasion demanded during the BoB) had the serial # LE-D V7467. That was all I could determine for sure. I have NO CONFIDENCE about the Spitfire story. Need some help with that one to prove/disprove. 
 

B.

 

Just like OBNW, you leaped to conclusions which are not justified by the evidence at hand! I was not talking about the BoB! I was talking, or more precisely quoting Bader about the period just before he got shot down over france. For more details see pior post by me on this topic.

 
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Belisarius1234    Hmmmm.   1/24/2013 11:39:45 PM
I simply noted what I found, Shooter. OBNW was correct when he said Bader flew Hurricanes during the BoB.
 
I SAID I needed help with the Spitfire account,.
 
The only person whose word needed verification as far as I was concerned was YOURS.
 
By the way, YOU WROTE:
 
8888888888888888888888888888888888
 
"1. The BoB Spitfire DID have many switches and controls that were required to be manipulated by the pilot in order... to have effective change in throttle/thrust.
2. Sir Douglas Bader, a pilot of consumate skill, wrote off a Spit because of the narrow track gear and difficulty setting all the controls re...."
 
8888888888888888888888888888888888
 
So, you IMPLIED it was a BoB Spit.  I think OBNW was justified to follow you up and challenge you, Shooter.
 
Don't try to say you DIDN'T. The post YOU MADE is there for all to read. 
 
B.
 
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oldbutnotwise       1/25/2013 4:03:25 AM
The source is Bader's own Auto-bigraphy! In his own words! This was by the way, NOT during the BoB, but in the cross channel missions time just before he was shot down by what was most likely "Friendly Fire".
 
Well either other sources are wrong or you are, so we go with the susual and assume you are, the Spit Bader is flying at the time of the accident (a Mk1 with two speed prop) was not a BoB aircraft as all BoB spits had been converted to Constant speed units (either  Rotol or deHavalind) also I have heard that Bader had not completed the conversion course to Spits at the time so comparisons are invalid, (his previous experiance was on fixed prop aircraft including earlier flights in Spits and Hurricanes)
 
So by your own arguments I could claim (silly I know) that the spit was easier as it had a fixed prop, this is why you need to be more accurate
 
 
As a second point, he was able to fly 62 sorties in 137 days. He describes how he had a relentless "Rage" against the Germans and was so desperate to "Get at them" that he was repremanded and finnally "Let off his leash" by his superiors to avoid making waves with the "Hero of the BoB"! While all of the above is interesting, the only realivant point is that a Wing Cdr could only manage one mission every 2.2 days over a period of 4-1/2 months!
 
Are we still taking BoB here? as Bader was NOT a hero of the BoB in fact he saw very little action beging stationed in 12 Group and being a big supporter of the flawed "Big Wing" of Mallory's 
 
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45-Shooter       1/25/2013 8:52:30 PM

I simply noted what I found, Shooter. OBNW was correct when he said Bader flew Hurricanes during the BoB. I SAID I needed help with the Spitfire account,.
The only person whose word needed verification as far as I was concerned was YOURS. 
 
By the way, YOU WROTE:
 
8888888888888888888888888888888888
     
"1. The BoB Spitfire DID have many switches and controls that were required to be manipulated by the pilot in order...... to have effective change in throttle/thrust.
Which post was this from?
     
2. Sir Douglas Bader, a pilot of consumate skill, wrote off a Spit because of the narrow track gear and difficulty setting all the controls re...."
Which post was this from?
 
8888888888888888888888888888888888

 

So, you IMPLIED it was a BoB Spit. Were the two lines above from the same post? I think OBNW was justified to follow you up and challenge you, Shooter. Don't try to say you DIDN'T. The post YOU MADE is there for all to read. 
B.

IF both of those lines were from the same post, then I can understand his failure to seperate the TWO sentances as the two ideas they were.
But that does not change the content of the idea in question, does it?
The BoB Spit DID have numerous controls that IF NOT OPPERATED CORECTLY could substantially reduce it's performance! Which IS the point we were discussing!
I believe that you and several others here are so put off by my ideas that you can not discuss them in a rational manner. Instead you must attack me and avoid answering the questions I pose, because if you did answer then honestly, you would then have to admit that I was correct?

 
 
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