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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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45-Shooter       1/8/2013 2:47:15 PM
BTW Shooter, I’d appreciate it if you would start backing up your claims with some evidence other than a book that nobody else has, a few Wikipedia entries and your alleged personal experience. I have provided extensive information so if you are going to contradict it, please do so on the basis of verifiable facts.
Like the Mk-IX not having been made in clipped wing LF variants, noted by both yourself and many "Spitfire" "experts"?
I do not mind that people make small mistakes of knowledge, or ignorance because we all forget and have limmits to our knowledge. That is why I like to keep to the ideas and ignore minor defects!
I will state my case one more time; The P-38 was the best all around fighter-fighter/bomber of WW-II. It was thus because; 1. It had the best relivant flight performance as it relates to combat, IE best cruise and top speeds and highest cruise altitude confered by turbo-charged engines, longer range, high aspect ratio wings which contribute to less induced drag and thuss higher SEP, maneuver flaps, good and great ( after Hydraulic actuation!) rate of roll and instantainious transient rates of roll, great pitch athority, both transient and sustained and in most parts of the envelope superior manners! 1A. Conta-Rotating Props! They contribute to the flight performance and is very very big on the list of most desirible traits!!! The bennifit of same is the absence of Preccession caused by gyroscopic forces while trying to point the nose at the target! Anyone who tries to disput this either has never paid any attantion to GCF, or never flown a plane with a big powerful engine and matching prop. 2. CL guns that make aiming and getting hits MUCH easier than other set ups! 3. High MV/BC weapons with lots of ammo both things that also make getting hits easier and more effective.
 
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45-Shooter       1/8/2013 3:03:12 PM

The links I have already provided also show that a Thunderbolt outrolled a normal winged Spit at over 280mph. Given that the P-47D's top speed was only 340mph at sea level, it wouldn't take much loss of speed from hard manovering before the Thunderbolt is playing in the Spit's territory. I never addressed this point in my last reply. The T-Bolt has more SEP and never gets down into the Spits part of the envelope. It is the Spit that looses sped, both more and faster. While I freely admit that the spit can out turn the P-47, most dogfights are "Transient Performance" affairs. At least if the pilots are both well skilled. Then when the Spit runs out of gas, the T-Bolt gets to reverse places, or watch him spin in! A Mk-IX Spit burns over 200 galloons of gas per hour at full throttle. Just five minutes of that is about 18 gallons of gas. Exactly how much gas does the Spitfire Mk-IX cary all up? A Mk-XIV is so much less handy than the Mk-IX that CFIT or reversal due to differances in transient responce are very likely to get him killed. But in either case, there is a large chance that the combination of superior transent maneuver, Spit firepower defficiencies and P-47's strength after damage means that the P-47 gets a chance to shoot back and if it does, then the Spit's well known fragility and the P-47's murderous fire power...

You fill in the ending.


 
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oldbutnotwise       1/8/2013 3:33:00 PM

hy? do your own defense
no you were wrong about Lanc bomb loads admit it
no i equate a history of convient mistakes on your behalf that have been shown to be dishonest or a distinct lack of research ability

no you are wrong about the tallboy as shown that they phyically are incapable of been carried as well as being weel over its max load (rated at 18000lbs despite it not been able to carry such a bomb load)

no you posted pics of a b29 and a b17 dropping 500lbs  you were shown USAAF document that shows that only 2 2000lbs could actually fit in a b17 bay.

as for tollerances you were asked to explain what is meant by this (and tollerance is a fundimental baserock of engineering) and you failed, had you been even a first year engineering student you would have been failed for your description.

I have found that on the numerous sites you have frequented that it is you that fail to accept that your argument are flawed and have been repeated debunked yet you consistantly repeat them without evidence untill the site gets fed up of your rubbish and bans you (by the way exactly how many sites have you been band from I personnely know of at least 3)

how can a plane be signiificatly better (other than being smaller and more difficult to see) in a suprise attact? certaily a P38 was particualy bad at this being almost the size of 2 conventional fighters (the P47 wasnt much smaller)

The 109 was small but it was also one of the worst for visibility so whilst not being seen is good not being able to see is bad
you championed the XP77 a dog of a aircraft that was late slow and a deathtrap, it was too small for its role, the 109 could be argued that it was boarderline in size for its role, certainly late was its size was a major cuse of its fall from its pinacle.

but you are trying to maximise something that is pretty much out of the disgners hands, supprise is mainly a factor of situation not of aircraft design, if you can do little ablut the 93% then you need to help that 7% as nuch as possible, it is always easier to increase the low number rather than the large (by teh way I dont agree with your figures and nither does mike Spick)

 
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oldbutnotwise       1/8/2013 3:45:08 PM


your problem is that you dont ignore minor defects but all defects of your argument.
Few people will rate the P38 as the best fighter in ww2, good it was but no way the best, its performance untill late war was poor (so bothe the 109 and the spit already are better fighters as they had to fight from the begining) cruise speed is irrelevent if your aircraft is in  a BOB or B17 intercept missions or escort for that matter as the fighter needed to stay with the bombers
top speed is debateable as it wasnt untill very late did they match the opposition and even then were difficult to manage untill automatic controls and dive brakes (a sure sign that somethingisnt right when you need to fit these to keep the aircraft controlable )
roll rate is nice but not the panacea ypou claim you need it as a package and the p38 was outclassed in the eto

counter rotating props are fine on a twin as you need two props anyway but on a single its just extra weight and complexity and only a benifit on the ground (why do you think they got so little adoption? )
plenty of ammo is good but the wieght of the ammo is not, ok by late war the engine power was suffcient to absorb the extra weight but in the early days having loads of extra ammo when you dig a creator in the ground is rather pointless!

 
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oldbutnotwise       1/8/2013 3:56:48 PM

the P47 might produce more power but it also bleeds more energy and does so faster, a P47 is out turned by a spit, it is also loses out in sustained dive and climbs, why would the spit run out of gas? unless it was forced to fight outside its designed range an argument you can apply to the p47 if you engage a p47 from norfolk over berlin then its going to be short of fuel, stop adjusting the argument to fit your choice, if the fight was over the spit base then the p47 loaded down with 700miles worth of fuel is going to be a sitting target (oh and with that amount of fuel on board its going to roll like the hinderburg)

p47 did not worry luftwaffe pilots (even the few flown by allied aces) the Spits did, the Jug was a tank and if flown correctly was a dangerous opponent but it was never a true fighter and would have been a libility in another enviroment it was basicaly addiquate given the roles it was asked to do

(and by the way 20mm cannons made a right mess of a p47)

 
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45-Shooter       1/8/2013 5:03:34 PM



Did you know that the P-38 with maneuvering flaps at 10% can out turn all other figher planes in WW-II at low speeds? Even the much vaunted Zero, Ta-152 and easiest of the three mentioned ANY Spitfire! in case it ran out of sky while diving. The Fiat CR.42 could out turning the P-38. 
 

You specified low speeds, don’t change the criteria to high speed performance just because you were proven wrong. But just ability to out turn at low speeds any other aircraft in the war does not make it the superior fighter. The Fiat could defeat anything that tried to turn with it, and lost if they refused and use the high speed passes.



But just ability to out turn at low speeds any other aircraft in the war does not make it the superior fighter.  The Fiat could defeat anything that tried to turn with it, and lost if they refused and use the high speed passes.
 
At first I did not address this issue because it was so silly, but now that I have had more time to think on it, I believe that a well flown Mono-plane fighter with good SEP could beat it in a turning fight! You see bipes have very high induced drag and requires lots of power to maintain that tight turning circle. I see two possible deffences Vs the Bipe. First is to force the slower plane to accellerate to keep up and thus use the strength of the faster plane to force the slower one to exceed it's best part of the envelope. Secondly is to climb while turning, both zoom and steady state by power. Again, the plane with the superior SEP wins, by forcing the bi-plane to fight outside of it's sweet spot.

You see, turning hard, in any plane causes it to slow down and the harder it turns, the more and the faster it slows down. By forcing the turn to evade the reach of my guns, IE, very hard turns, I force the slower Bipe to get even slower while the natural tendancy of my plane is to accellerate. He is lighter and has very much less zoom in him, he has less SEP and can not accellerate and climb at the same time. 
 
I believe that given the right tactics, almost ANY good Monoplane could shoot down the bi-plane in a dog fight. You just have to use the right tactics, to say nothing of the lack of killing power of the two 7.62 MM LMGs!

As a third question, just how well do you think that Bipe would turn if it were weighted down with two or four 20 mms?
 
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45-Shooter       1/8/2013 6:49:50 PM

No you were wrong about Lanc bomb loads admit it
No, I was right! Early Modles could carry up to 14,000 pounds because that was the total that could be accomodated on the 14 bomb racks. Then later, after the introduction of "Short fin" bombs the planes on the production line were changed to have 18 bomb racks instead of 14, thus making the total maximum bomb load 18,000 pounds. Later still, they modified 31 to 33, I can not remember what number is correct, aircraft to carry Tallboy, or bouncing bomb, but not either, or both. Then much later in the war they modified some of those ~30 planes to tote Grand Slam. But in all of history, there were only ~30 Lancaster Aircraft that could cary any of the super bombs. As an aside some of the other "Normal" Lancs were modified to carry the 12,000 pound Light case bomb. IIRC, only about ~36 AC were thus converted. no you are wrong about the tallboy as shown that they phyically are incapable of been carried as well as being weel over its max load (rated at 18000lbs despite it not been able to carry such a bomb load) Technically, the later ~12,000 B-17E/F/G could carry up to 17,600 pounds, in spite of the bomb bay being "Rated" at 8,000 pounds! Tallboy Massed between 12-13,000 pounds! As you can see from above, you have missunderstood the entire argument about bomb load! The ability of the Lancaster to lift 14,000, or 18,000 pounds of bombs by the last 2/3s, or 3/4s of Lancaster AC, Only some of those ~30 "Specials" could cary Tallboy. Some could carry Grand slam, or Tallboy and some could cary the bouncing bomb. But an no time were there more than ~30 Aircraft that could carry any of the "Out sized" bombs! you were shown USAAF document that shows that only 2 2000lbs could actually fit in a b17 bay. No, the documents you posted were just as out of date as the claim that all Lancs could carry Tallboy, because they could all carry 18,000 pounds, which in it self is not true! Some of them could only cary LESS than 10,000 pounds depending on the type! how can a plane be signiificatly better (other than being smaller and more difficult to see) in a suprise attact? certaily a P38 was particualy bad at this being almost the size of 2 conventional fighters (the P47 wasnt much smaller) This is certainly true as far as it goes. There is much more to combat traits than just size, because IF that were the case all WW-II fighters would have been the size of the XP-77. The 109 was small but it was also one of the worst for visibility so whilst not being seen is good not being able to see is bad True!
you championed the XP77, a dog of a aircraft that was late, slow and a deathtrap, it was too small for its role, the 109 could be argued that it was boarderline in size for its role, certainly late was its size was a major cuse of its fall from its pinacle. The Germans decided that the -109 was still one of the best and most of their great aces chose to stay with it rather than switch to any thing else. but you are trying to maximise something that is pretty much out of the disgners hands, True, but still a fact of life! supprise is mainly a factor of situation not of aircraft design, if you can do little ablut the 93% then you need to help that 7% as nuch as possible, it is always easier to increase the low number rather than the large (by teh way I dont agree with your figures and nither does mike Spick)

In what way, he was in favor of the smallest possible plane to get the job done. Read his writings on the F-16 AND WHAT ARE HIS FIGS FOR SURPRISE FACTOR?
Your last Parragraph is an appalling piece of logic. If surprise is the only way that the largest fraction of all targets are shot down, should we do anything we can to maximize that possability? The faster your plane is, the harder it is to surprise in the first place and the easier it is for you to surprise the other guy! This is well known and epitomised as the universal saying of Fighter Pilots that "SPEED IS LIFE!"

 
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45-Shooter       1/8/2013 7:19:14 PM

your problem is that you dont ignore minor defects but all defects of your argument. ????
Few people will rate the P38 as the best fighter in ww2,So What? If everyone else jumps off a bridge... good it was, but no way the best, its performance untill late war was poor Lets see, it was the first aircraft to go over 400 MPH...  cruise speed is irrelevent if your aircraft is in  a BOB or B17 intercept missions or escort for that matter as the fighter needed to stay with the bombers You miss the entire point! Cruise speed IS combat speed for the vast majority of ALL combats! Plus, the early P-38 was able to "Cruise at 360 MPH when the early Spit was only good for 352 MPH TOP SPEED!!!!!
top speed is debateable as it wasnt untill very late did they match the opposition  Lets see, the early Spits were good for 352 MPH and the slowest P-38 of all time was good for ~400 MPH??? and even then were difficult to manage Only in that it was VERY difficult to advance the throttle from cruise to combat power! BUT it was almost as difficult to do that exact same thing in ALL fighter planes until the Fw-190!! untill automatic controls But this is not much different than all other planes of the times! and dive brakes (a sure sign that somethingisnt right when you need to fit these to keep the aircraft controlable )You confuse controlability with authority. The P-38 had problems with authority in steep dives at speeds that would cause the wings to come off of EARLY MODEL SPITFIRES! In addition it was considerably more agile in rate of roll and pitch athority than many European planes of WW-II.
roll rate is nice but not the panacea ypou claim you need it as a package and the p38 was outclassed in the eto Pure wishful thinking?counter rotating props are fine Esential! on a twin as you need two props anyway but on a single its just extra weight and complexity and only a benifit on the ground (why do you think they got so little adoption? ) There are several reasons why; cost, complexity, weight and others, but like retaining NARROW TRACK landing gear, those are all false answers incorectly arrived at!
plenty of ammo is good but the wieght of the ammo is not, ok by late war the engine power was suffcient to absorb the extra weight but in the early days having loads of extra ammo when you dig a creator in the ground is rather pointless!

The tactic of converting every argument into an either-or debate is a way to side step the larger issues. Like all things, it is a trade off and one that is well to be made on the heavy side. Adding a few hundred pounds certainly seemed to help the Spitfire to become a much better fighter plane! ( In more ways than one, cince they did that several times!) IF I had to remove say 212 pounds out of the P-38 to make it the uber fighter to end all fighters, I'd chuck the 20 MM and 150 rounds of linked ammo. ( I did not just say that to start a fight, but because it is true!)

You are certainly right in most of what you say, but it is the total package that makes or breaks the plane. Un-like me you ignore the big and even huge defects of some planes and then poo-poo the small defects as if they are nothing. IF, IN MY OPPINION, for no other reason than the Narrow Track Landing Gear, both the Spitfire and Me-109 could never be the best Fighter plane of the War!
 
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45-Shooter       1/8/2013 7:37:58 PM

the P47 might produce more power but it also bleeds more energy False. and does so faster, False again. a P47 is out turned by a spit, True under some conditions. it is also loses out in sustained dive and climbs, Not nearly as badly as you think. And depending on the model of Spitfire might easily out dive it for ANY distance! why would the spit run out of gas? Poor throttle and flight management! Even over home field. unless it was forced to fight outside its designed range It's "Designed Range was over 400 miles, yet there was no way to reach even HALF of that figure IF it was required to do so at the so called "Combat Cruise"! an argument you can apply to the p47 if you engage a p47 from norfolk over berlin And the Spit can get to Berlin how? then its going to be short of fuel, stop adjusting the argument to fit your choice, NO, it is a fact of life that the Spit was one, if not THE shortest legged plane of WW-II! Poor throttle management MAY have killed more Spits than any other plane in history! if the fight was over the spit base then the p47 loaded down with 700miles worth of fuel is going to be a sitting target (oh and with that amount of fuel on board its going to roll like the hinderburg) Wrong in so many ways! It is still going to out roll any early Spit with any load of gas up. p47 did not worry luftwaffe pilots That is not what they said! (even the few flown by allied aces) the Spits did, the Jug was a tank and if flown correctly was a dangerous opponent but it was never a true fighter Tell that to Jonny Jonson's targets, or the guy who shot down five Me-109s and Fw-190s in one dogfight! and would have been a libility in another enviroment it was basicaly addiquate given the roles it was asked to do (and by the way 20mm cannons made a right mess of a p47)

Who was it that counted 22 hits from German Cannons with their three times more powerful 20 MM shells and over 200 13 MM holes, FROM JUST ONE SID E OF HIS P-47?
No one ever brought a Spitfire home with ten 20 MM hits that I have ever heard of!

 
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45-Shooter    Me-109 is factually the most effective fighter plane of WW-II!   1/8/2013 9:55:13 PM
As proof, I offer this from Wiki:

List of World War II aces from Germany

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article... by adding citations to reliable s.... Unsourced material may be challenged... and removed.... (December 2012)
Messerschmitt Bf 109..., the backbone of the Luftwaffe fighter force in World War II

This is a list of fighter aces... in World War II... from Germany. A flying ace or fighter ace is a military aviator... credited with shooting down five or more enemy aircraft... during aerial combat.[1]... German day and night fighter pilots claimed roughly 70,000 aerial victories during World War II, 25,000 over British or American and 45,000 over Russian flown aircraft. 103 German fighter pilots shot down more than 100 enemy aircraft for a total of roughly 15,400 aerial victories. Roughly a further 360 pilots claimed between 40 and 100 aerial victories for round about 21,000 victories. Another 500 fighter pilots claimed between 20 and 40 victories for a total of 15,000 victories. It is relatively certain that 2,500 German fighter pilots attained ace status, having achieved at least 5 aerial victories.[2]... These achievements were honored with 453 German day and Zerstörer (destroyer) pilots having received the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cro.... 85 night fighter pilots, including 14 crew members, were awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross.[3]...

German losses on the other hand were very high as well. Roughly 12,000 German day fighter pilots were killed or are still missing in action with a further 6,000 being wounded. The Zerstörer (destroyer) pilots suffered about 2,800 casualties, either killed or missing in action, plus another 900 wounded in action. German night fighter losses were in the magnitude of 3,800 pilots or crew members killed or missing and 1,400 wounded.[4]...

List of World War II aces from Germany

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is a list of fighter aces... in World War II... from Germany. A flying ace or fighter ace is a military aviator... credited with shooting down five or more enemy aircraft... during aerial combat.[1]...German day and night fighter pilots claimed roughly 70,000 aerial victories during World War II, 25,000 over British or American and 45,000 over Russian flown aircraft.103 German fighter pilots shot down more than 100 enemy aircraft for a total of roughly 15,400 aerial victories. Roughly a further 360 pilots claimed between 40 and 100 aerial victories for round about 21,000 victories. Another 500 fighter pilots claimed between 20 and 40 victories for a total of 15,000 victories. It is relatively certain that 2,500 German fighter pilots attained ace status, having achieved at least 5 aerial victories.[2]... These achievements were honored with 453 German day and Zerstörer (destroyer) pilots having received the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cro.... 85 night fighter pilots, including 14 crew members, were awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross.[3]...

German losses on the other hand were very high as well. Roughly 12,000 German day fighter pilots were killed or are still missing in action with a further 6,000 being wounded. The Zerstörer (destroyer) pilots suffered about 2,800 casualties, either killed or missing in action, plus another 900 wounded in action. German night fighter losses were in the magnitude of 3,800 pilots or crew members killed or missing and 1,400 wounded.[4]...

 
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