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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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45-Shooter       5/22/2011 2:30:49 AM

My understanding of ballistics is limited but I do have something to say that is pertinent i think: You are so right and wrong at the same time about that!

Point 1:
12.7mm APs rounds goes in and out against tin skinned part of a plane, just like a 20mm AP so thats not really a issue here. Again, you are so right, but it is when they hit something in-between that counts, all other rounds are wasted, just like you state, but the .50 has so many more chances to get that one critical hit!
Point 2: For the engine and armored part, that doesn't give any advantage to the 12,7 AP cause the 20mm AP will do more damage anyway. Again, you are so right, but the .50 has so many more chances to get that one critical hit!
 
Point 3:
20mm Explosive rounds do a 20mm hole on one side and multiples smaller holes on the other and release several cubics meters of hot flaming gas in the middle of that.  I am not a expert but I am pretty sure that overpressure alone could do massive damage on its own agaist most part of fighter and bomber. (think about firing a gun in a car with closed window...) I'm so glad that you admitted that you don't know anything about this topic! First the amount of hot gas generated by a 2.6 to 6.5 gram charge of any explosive is measured in liters, dozens, not hundreds! The shell often times explodes just under the skin and the only visible holes are with in 18" of the point of detonation! At that distance there will be many fragments that failed to perforate the thin skin of the target AC! Look at any photos to see this for your self. You can see the dents left by failure to hole fragments. Secondly the 20 MM Hisso shell only makes ten to twelve large fragments that have the power to perforate the skin and rarely anything thicker! Lastly, I have fired many guns from inside cars, some (MANY!) that generate more gas than the smallest Hisso shell, it is not nearly as bad as
 
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Aussiegunneragain    RP   5/22/2011 2:35:05 AM

thanks Aussiegunneragain. I think your picture confirm the effect of overpressure i was talking about isn't it?

 45-shooter, before jumping on a other subject you should acknowledge that your point of 12.7 mm superiority over the 20 mm had been proven wrong... That would actually increase what left of your credibility here.


Up and no problem :-).
 
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Aussiegunneragain    RP   5/22/2011 2:37:29 AM




thanks Aussiegunneragain. I think your picture confirm the effect of overpressure i was talking about isn't it?



 45-shooter, before jumping on a other subject you should acknowledge that your point of 12.7 mm superiority over the 20 mm had been proven wrong... That would actually increase what left of your credibility here.







Up and no problem :-).



I mean Yup. :-)
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Shooter   5/22/2011 2:40:58 AM
They did not switch until the advent of the M-61 Vulcan gun in 20 MM! Note that the .50 worked more than "Well enough" in Korea Vs a plane every one knows is tougher than any in WW-II!
 
Apparently you haven't heard of the Colt M-39 in while conducting your "expert research" ... sorry, I'm smirking.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Shooter   5/22/2011 2:42:36 AM

They did not switch until the advent of the M-61 Vulcan gun in 20 MM! Note that the .50 worked more than "Well enough" in Korea Vs a plane every one knows is tougher than any in WW-II!
 

Apparently you haven't heard of the Colt M-39 in while conducting your "expert research" ... sorry, I'm smirking.



I mean Colt M-12 and Pontiac M-39 of course. I'm still smirking :-).
 
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45-Shooter       5/22/2011 2:44:07 AM

 


http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/side2.gif" width="375" height="233" />


 A German 20mm shell peeled the metal covering off this bomber like skin off an onion. Note the small caliber bullet holes in the fuselage star
 

 


http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/balltur.jpg" width="272" height="213" />





This entire web site makes my point exactly! Note that the direct hit from a 20 MM shell failed to cause any major injuries to the crewman inside! Go to the link to see for yourself! There are dozens of pics with hits from 88 MM shells which are many times more powerful than puny 20 and 30 MM shells! I never could have made my point so well! See the rest of the site at the link to see a hint of what I mean! Take note of the lack of fragment holes far from the points of detonation!
 
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45-Shooter       5/22/2011 2:46:30 AM
You niggle at a typo??? it's SIX, not 26!
 
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45-Shooter       5/22/2011 2:48:47 AM

They did not switch until the advent of the M-61 Vulcan gun in 20 MM! Note that the .50 worked more than "Well enough" in Korea Vs a plane every one knows is tougher than any in WW-II!
 

Apparently you haven't heard of the Colt M-39 in while conducting your "expert research" ... sorry, I'm smirking.



You are right! I'd forgotten that one! But the F-100 never shot down another plane in combat, it was a ground attack AC!
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Shooter   5/22/2011 2:57:19 AM
>>
 
Then read this, if you prefer. It tells us how 20mm and 30 cal fire blew half the flight deck off a B-17G. I figure it might have been the 20mm's that did the damage, don't you?
 
PS, the damage far from the 20mm strike on the previous
 
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RedParadize       5/22/2011 3:14:27 AM
Shooter, first of all, as I said in my post at page 11 (RedParadize    .50 vs 20×110mm   5/17/2011 11:33:10 AM)
I aknowlege that 12.7mm might have a better hit probability because more round are fired generaly speaking. But talking  about HE vs AP, your argument doesn't stand.  Let me cote your own comment, cause the explanation can be found in it:
 
From 45-Shooter       5/22/2011 1:50:27 AM
"There are many so called "Single point failure" spots on every air craft! A single hit at that point downs the plane, sooner or later... Lets spare us the redondant example  ...Any hit, regardless of caliber on any of these systems has a chance to down the plane, some more than others, but every single one could be fatal to any plane!"
 
That is also true for 20 mm splinter. I don't know where you got your blast area of effect for the 20mm but they are wrong,  Modern grenade don't pack much more energy than a 20mm HE round, but they do trow alot of relatively slow and small pelets that yes would be enough to seriously damage to any ww2 plane.
 

 
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