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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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gf0012-aust       5/25/2010 2:36:44 AM
not so sure myself on whether he was as benign as you say, but thats based on a couple of bios I've read on him.  best case is that he was naive.  worst case would be that he was calculating.

eg:

During his January 23, 1941, testimony before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, Lindbergh recommended the United States negotiate a neutrality pact with Germany.

In a speech at an America First rally in Des Moines on September 11, 1941, "Who Are the War Agitators?" Lindbergh claimed the three groups, "pressing this country toward war [are] the British, the Jewish and the Roosevelt Administration" and said of Jewish groups,

"Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences. Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastation."[65]

In the speech, he warned of the Jewish People's "large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government", and went on to say of Germany's antisemitism, "No person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race in Germany." Lindbergh declared,

"I am not attacking either the Jewish or the British people. Both races, I admire. But I am saying that the leaders of both the British and the Jewish races, for reasons which are as understandable from their viewpoint as they are inadvisable from ours, for reasons which are not American, wish to involve us in the war. We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we also must look out for ours. We cannot allow the natural passions and prejudices of other peoples to lead our country to destruction."[66]
The speech was heavily criticized as being anti-Jewish.[67] In response Lindbergh noted again he was not anti-Semitic, but he did
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Pratt & Whitney R-2800, 2,000 Horse Power heart of brutes...   5/25/2010 8:38:31 PM
The Corsair, Hellcat, and Jug all used the same power plant, the Pratt and Whitney R-2800. The Navy's aircraft had service ceilings at about 35,000 more or less while the P-47's 20 foot long cardio-vascular turbo charging system netted it a somewhat lower performance (but still respectable). All three aircraft were very big by early war standards because they had to be to manage the biggest production power plant then in service. The Corsair's limitations in high altitude combat would have been related to it's big wing and the thick wing Chord to accommodate low speed flight regimes needed to land on a carrier. Where the Mustang might have been more agile up high, the Corsair's power had to be respected in the medium and low altitudes and it's speed/rate of climb would have been intimidating anywhere. Against likely Japanese aircraft the Corsair should have been more than a match "A" squared. Against a FW-190 above 25,000 feet I'd think a Corsair driver would have his dance card quite full.
 
The Corsair and Hellcat had a multi-staged turbo supercharger based upon the GE system, but small enough to fit in the nose of the aircraft (big noses to be sure). The Corsair had a very troublesome design feature that made it as vulnerable as the Mustang to ground fire. It's Turbo Charger inlets and oil coolers were located in the wings. That made it very vulnerable to even rifle diameter  fire or small pieces of flak. The Hellcat and the P-47 had their oil coolers in the nose where the prop could sweep the flak and small weapons fire away.  
 
The P-38 couldn't roll to save it's ass (long wings and two engines to move) but it had enough pitch authority to go vertical in a hurry and lots of power to make it go go go. Zoom and boom. It was a very difficult plane to master, compared say to a
P-40 or P-51, but once a pilot understood it's demanding procedures it was pretty safe from Japanese pilots. Unless the Lightening pilot decided to get in close and mix it up with them or the Japanese pilot got the drop on him and scored an early, lucky hit. 
 
One note on terminology. "Service Ceiling"  in aviation parlance, refers to the last altitude at which the aircraft can maintain a very minimum rate of climb (say about 100-200 feet per minute). Obviously one can not dog fight at "service ceiling".
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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45-Shooter       6/22/2010 7:03:48 PM

Bf-109s might have lost their dogfighting edge by the G-6 model, but they were still highly potent, especially the late Gs and K-4, which could more or less outclimb and out accellerate any other piston engine fighter except perhaps the Bearcat and Pfeil.



Too true! Just based on accomplishments, the 109 wins hands down! No other plane comes close! Period!
The problem with this debate is how do you define "Best" A2A, A2G, Range, K/L, or some other factor? The problem is that different factors give different answers. Then there is pilot quality and quantity. Take E.H. or almost any of the other Experten in any plane you like and they then dominate the equation.
 
If on the other hand we use analytical analysis of characteristics, then it becomes clear that there are few actual contenders based on their abilities to dominate airspace using the tactics and performance of their design. The Spit and Stang and most other Allied planes fail on design facts, like low wing loading, or wing mounted guns to name one defect! Several German designs shine, but outside of actual records, most are defective in one way or another.
 
I propose that in lieu of numbers of kills based on so many things besides the plane and time period of the war, we use a basic test of how much chance does any of these planes have to shoot down any of the others, given typical flight profiles and tactics over neutral territory. The top criteria are cruising speed, acceleration/dash speed, range of fire power/CL mounted guns, combat persistence and range at speed! All other things are not important! Only these factors matter for more than 90% of all combats!
 
I would state that no plane with wing mounted guns can win this contest because they have extremely short ranged weapons with low lethality at ALL ranges but their Zero range! After narrowing the list to planes with long ranged and powerful weapons, high cruising speeds and good flight characteristics, there are very few contenders. Any ideas?
 
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45-Shooter    Good point about dog fighting!   6/22/2010 9:27:48 PM

 The real shortcoming with Russian fighters were their half-trained pilots, but Barkhorn went half an hour with a Lavochkin without laying a glove on him.  If you ran into a half-decent Russian pilot, you were in for a fight.

 

 

This is very much more common than you would think! If the target reacts well before you get into shooting poss, then the chances to shoot him down are little to none unless your plane is very much better than his! That is why ~93% of all kills were ambushes! This is also why the Spit turned from a winner over England to a looser over France in late '44.
 
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45-Shooter    Failure of the thought processes!   6/22/2010 9:44:31 PM




and dogfighting means a pilot screwed up somehow in any event.





I've heard that theory but I'm not convinced. What about when fighters are providing escort to bombers or recon aircraft which is an inherantly defensive poise? If you relied on hit and runs only when it suited you in that instance the bomber crews would be very unhappy with you.


Yes "Dog fighting" is a failure of the thought processes! Escorting bombers is not deffencive, but offencive in nature. The enimy has to close the bombers to score. The escorts only have to stop that and they win! The Tuskegy Airmen proved that! No losses and few kills. But the fact that the enimy has to close the bombers makes them predictable and easy to shoot down. The have to suffer both the head on pass and survive that and the high deflection pass by the unseen defender! The defender is unseen mostly because they are watching the bombers or other escorts and the guy they miss kills them! Again from ambush!
 
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45-Shooter       6/22/2010 10:19:00 PM

A late model P-47 with paddle blades could outclimb and outdive just about anything. Robert Johnson stated that once they got the paddle blades he had no trouble outclimbing Spitfires...

 No, a Spitfire II from 1940 could outclimb any P47 ever built, including all the so-called 'lightweight' models, with ease.  Johnson's story was simply made up, and he comes across as a complete blowhard.

Cromwell 

That is the silliest thing I've read in weeks! The P-47D, not to mention M&N, was about 1,100 FPM better than the Spit-II at sea level and only got better with altitude. In fact it was about 300 FPM less than the Spit XIV at sea level and about 700 FPM better at altitudes above 32,000'! But is the Spit was required to do that with full tanks and the drop, then the rolls were drasticaly reversed!
 
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albywan       6/22/2010 10:46:11 PM



 This is also why the Spit turned from a winner over England to a looser over France in late '44.




The Hurricane was the workhorse that won the BoB...
 
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45-Shooter    Almost right?   6/23/2010 9:30:05 PM







 This is also why the Spit turned from a winner over England to a looser over France in late '44.










The Hurricane was the workhorse that won the BoB...


Both plane types were required to win the battle. The Hurry was available in numbers, time and space at a cost that made it a strategic necessity during the BoB. But with out the Spit, the BoB is lost!
 
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Wicked Chinchilla       6/24/2010 9:46:17 AM















 This is also why the Spit turned from a winner over England to a looser over France in late '44.






















The Hurricane was the workhorse that won the BoB...






Both plane types were required to win the battle. The Hurry was available in numbers, time and space at a cost that made it a strategic necessity during the BoB. But with out the Spit, the BoB is lost!


German Strategic blundering and British Courage won the BoB.  The machines just helped out.  Had Hitler not ordered the switch of targets from the RAF and the air-defense network to population centers it was only a matter of time before the Brits were toast.  It was a foot race to be sure between who would run out of men and machine's first but the Germans were edging ahead until they gave the RAF a breather so they could go bomb houses. 
 
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Hamilcar    Target list.   6/24/2010 9:59:42 AM































 This is also why the Spit turned from a winner over England to a looser over France in late '44.














































The Hurricane was the workhorse that won the BoB...














Both plane types were required to win the battle. The Hurry was available in numbers, time and space at a cost that made it a strategic necessity during the BoB. But with out the Spit, the BoB is lost!






German Strategic blundering and British Courage won the BoB.  The machines just helped out.  Had Hitler not ordered the switch of targets from the RAF and the air-defense network to population centers it was only a matter of time before the Brits were toast.  It was a foot race to be sure between who would run out of men and machine's first but the Germans were edging ahead until they gave the RAF a breather so they could go bomb houses. 

 
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