US demands Japan $10 million for the access to F-35 capability information

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SlowMan 10/8/2009 4:30:30 PM

@ sentinel28a

> Kind of like why biplanes weren't that effective against a giant gorilla.

Except that biplanes killed King Kong; GSDF could never kill Godzilla.

> I suppose you could make the assertion that Godzilla represents the US and the SDF is powerless to stop it, but that's going far for an analogy.

That joke was to meant to show how Japanese feel about how ineffective GSDF really is. The image of GSDF in Japan is that this is where unemployed men without any future prospect join.

> You hate the Japanese

I am still puzzled why you think I hate Japan.

> That generation is long dead, and the present one shouldn't be judged on that basis.

I guess you forgot about how Chinese kung fu movie heros fight to avenge their great grand fathers wronged 100 years ago...

> You seem to see Japan as a whole through a prism of hate.

No, I look at Asian situation from a perspective of an outsider, far away.

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SlowMan 10/8/2009 4:39:39 PM

@ gf0012-aust

> the fact that you see RFT's as a technology says a lot.

I didn't. Why do you make up stuff?

> and the article is clearly wrong

All articles in either language say the same thing.

> I've only attended a number of brieings.

Thus you know less than the negotiators.

> sigh, because you troll, you do not get access to the warfighting data unless you sign some of the NDA/Professional clauses.

And why charge a fee? Did BAE and Boeing demand a fee to provide their data?

> sigh, see above. wash rinse repeat. guess what, the journo has no idea what he's written is fundamentally incorrect.

Japanese journalists were writing down what Japanese DoD spokesperson was saying to the press.

> perhaps he needs to refer to the processes that the israelis and singaporeans undertook

Japanese process is different, very different, from israelis and singaporeans.

> actually its the issue that you don't understand the processes and are glibly quoting a publication that cannot get basic concepts and requirements right.

Then we have a problem, because that $10 million fee demand caused a massive firestorm in Japan; basically this is a diplomatic insult.

> It is you who shows the lack of knowledge on this matter.

It is you who shows the lack of knowledge.

> Illegal participation??

Yes, illegal. The same reason JGSDF forces stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan would not open fire if they saw other foreign troops or UN officials under attack, because it is against their constitution. They could open fire only if they were the ones being fired upon. A crazy rule, right? But that's the way it is under the peace constitution.

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Rufus 10/8/2009 4:42:51 PM

"No, I look at Asian situation from a perspective of an outsider, far away."

LMAO

Three words for you slowkid...

"Grand Naval Showdown"

I mean WTF kind of name is that anyways? It sounds like a pay per view boxing match.

You are an idiot wishing for a war because you have an inferiority complex and want to see "your" team win for once.

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SlowMan 10/8/2009 4:53:54 PM

@ gf0012-aust

BTW, you didn't miss much on Lockheed Martin's F-35 briefings from what I heard on the accounts of Lockheed Martin's F-35 presentation at "foreign airforce generals" level. The presentation at decision maker's level includes sales and maintenance terms, but no hard performance data. I totally understand why stealth data was excluded from even that $10 million "product catalog".

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gf0012-aust 10/8/2009 4:58:55 PM

@ gf0012-aust > the fact that you see RFT's as a technology says a lot.

I didn't. Why do you make up stuff?

you're asking me about how it works immediately after a reference to RFT. there's an association.

> and the article is clearly wrong

All articles in either language say the same thing.

and they're the obverse of what has been said to foreign military reps and credentialed staff at the formal briefings. I know which source I believe

> I've only attended a number of brieings.

Thus you know less than the negotiators.

actually, I do know one of them. that doesn't alter the fact that all the white hat material is clearly available. none of what I discuss is black, and if it was I would not even remotely raise it

> sigh, because you troll, you do not get access to the warfighting data unless you sign some of the NDA/Professional clauses.

And why charge a fee? Did BAE and Boeing demand a fee to provide their data?

oh for goodness sake, its a consortium requirement. access to certain material is binding and requires financial input. its a totally new procurement methodology for consortiums.

> sigh, see above. wash rinse repeat. guess what, the journo has no idea what he's written is fundamentally incorrect.

Japanese journalists were writing down what Japanese DoD spokesperson was saying to the press.

and they have misrepresented the situation or they have been misrepresented

> perhaps he needs to refer to the processes that the israelis and singaporeans undertook

Japanese process is different, very different, from israelis and singaporeans.

no, its a consortium requirement. every new or potential player has to abide by the same coniditons

> actually its the issue that you don't understand the processes and are glibly quoting a publication that cannot get basic concepts and requirements right.

Then we have a problem, because that $10 million fee demand caused a massive firestorm in Japan; basically this is a diplomatic insult.

then they don't understand the req. and thats probably why Gates is doing his flying visit. there are no exceptions. even the israelis play by the same rules, and they've got greater access to US tech sets than japan and skor combined

> It is you who shows the lack of knowledge on this matter.

It is you who shows the lack of knowledge.

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SlowMan 10/8/2009 5:18:26 PM

@ gf0012-aust

> you're asking me about how it works immediately after a reference to RFT.

You presumed too much.

> and they're the obverse of what has been said to foreign military reps and credentialed staff at the formal briefings.

No, they are Japanese journalists reporting what Japanese DoD spokesperson told them.

> I do know one of them.

But you don't sit in the negotiation table.

> oh for goodness sake, its a consortium requirement.

And Japan cannot join JSF consortium.

> and they have misrepresented the situation or they have been misrepresented

Then blame the Japanese DoD spokesperson since all Japanese papers are reporting the same thing, that US demanded $10 million for access to data that Japan requested, excluding stealth data which would be made available once Japan signs up for purchase contract.

> no, its a consortium requirement.

And Japan cannot join the consortium.

> every new or potential player has to abide by the same coniditons

Well, every new customer does not have the article 9 of peace constitution behind them.

> ROE's state that you cannot initiate fire unless under direct threat.

And watch UN officials die.

> Try to understand the differences between a constitutional req and a legal binding forces ROE req.

The same constitution that wrote that ROE also prohibits Japan from becoming a JSF consortium member.

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gf0012-aust 10/8/2009 5:23:15 PM

really? Avalon was for those with Clearance and credentialed media - IOW, media with clearance dispensation

you do know what that means?

IOW, you heard squat because you heard it from an uncredentialed source.

nice try

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SlowMan 10/8/2009 5:39:56 PM

@ gf0012-aust

> you heard squat because you heard it from an uncredentialed source.

Actually it is the other way around; I don't know your credential and there is no reputable 3rd party to confirm your credential like a national newspaper journalist.

This source is a confirmed DoD offical by the 3rd party journalist.

See, it's like me hearing from two sources, one uncredentialed(gf0012-aust) and another independently credentialed(the deep throat).

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albywan 10/8/2009 6:14:44 PM

Do you actually have ANY proof the Japanese Journalist had ANY sort of Defense credentials?

Or were they just a reporter who is out of their depth, blatantly repeating THEIR understanding of what a DoD official was saying.

Journalists can be worse than Fanboy's - because they often take literally a Fanboy's fantasises...

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maruben More info 10/8/2009 6:15:32 PM

"Actually the F-35 was recommended by Gates himself in last May to our MoD. "

Oh it was recommended... the US would like to sell the F-35 to Japan, but it is hardly "pushing" it on anyone.

Thus far the F-35 has really sold itself.

In case you need the source please check it from h**p://www.breitbart.com/artic...

Gates recommends F-35 as Japan's next main striker: sources+

May 23 05:30 AM US/Eastern

WASHINGTON, May 23 (AP) - (Kyodo)—U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates... recommended the F-35 fighter jet to Japanese Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada early this month as Japan's next-generation mainstay fighter jet, sources close to Japan-U.S. relations said Saturday.

Although Tokyo has yet to give up on efforts to acquire the higher- performance F-22 stealth jet, Gates' suggestion is expected to force it to seriously consider the F-35 in lieu of the F-22.

The sources said Gates, in a meeting with Hamada at the Pentagon on May 1, touted the F-35 as an excellent aircraft as he explained his earlier proposal to end production of the F-22 as part of a major review of his department's spending priorities.

Washington will send Michael Schiffer, deputy assistant secretary of defense for Quote Reply

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