UAE Rafale sales status update : 60 for UAE + 14~28 for Kuwait. Announcement by Dubai Airshow

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 NEXT

sentinel28a 10/3/2009 2:23:00 AM

Buying back the Mirage's is the greatest stumbling block to the deal . I doubt that anybody would be willing to buy 60 old Mirages in a such competitive market.. There is no market for this...

The Mirage 2000-9 isn't exactly old. It's pretty competitive. I would even say that it's a better interceptor than the Rafales currently in service.

A good market would be Pakistan, which needs a replacement for its ancient Mirage III fleet...but I don't see France risking the wrath of India on that one. Another interesting customer would be Vietnam, which needs a MiG-21 replacement. That would be the irony of ironies!

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 10/3/2009 12:37:23 PM

Sentinel :

""The Mirage 2000-9 isn't exactly old. It's pretty competitive. I would even say that it's a better interceptor than the Rafales currently in service.""

The -9s are not very old indeed and stay very competitive . Nevertheless while they are deadly in AtoA , the Rafale has the edge . I know why you say such thing sentinel : the -9 's RDY-2 radar , the ICMS MkIII ECM suite , its rather low RCS (2 square meter) and its speed . The Rafale better the -9 in all those areas bare the max speed , but I agree that the ECM fight would be very close and the two fighters would probably have to go dogfight and then , the -9 is in a hell of trouble ...

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 10/3/2009 12:59:48 PM

Translation of a French article published in "Le Point" magazine 3 weeks ago :

""The Air Force of this country (Romania) seeks to replace some old Mig 21 Soviet-made, modernized in the former Yugoslavia, and had originally planned to purchase new aircraft. It could be either French Rafale F3, or Swedish JAS 39 Gripen or F-16C / D Block 50/52 Lockheed Martin.

These ambitions have now been abandoned, and according to our information, Bucharest provides for only the purchase of 12 used aircraft, which could be either former F-16C / D Block 25 of the U.S. Air Force, currently under cocoon in the Mojave Desert or, indeed, Mirage 2000-9 redeemed by the French government in the UAE, and then resold.""

Cheers .

Quote Reply

gf0012-aust 10/3/2009 4:53:13 PM

" .....These ambitions have now been abandoned, and according to our information, Bucharest provides for only the purchase of 12 used aircraft, which could be either former F-16C / D Block 25 of the U.S. Air Force, currently under cocoon in the Mojave Desert or, indeed, Mirage 2000-9 redeemed by the French government in the UAE, and then resold"

the last half is a politically "nice statement" deliberately crafted so as to not ruffle feathers.

as I stated, unless gifted the on costs to support those aircraft would be an embuggerance. France won't be interested in 12 aicraft and the inherent logistics burden unless they want to take it fair on the chin. The economics and real life issues of injecting a totally different second hand aircraft that has less regional presence, and hence an impact on things like spare parts, cross training in type, etc would be issues that the assessment team must consider - irrespective of any political thrust.

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 10/3/2009 5:25:44 PM

gf :

""France won't be interested in (selling)12 aircraft""

gf , I am sorry to say but things are far more complicated than you might think .

As much as I dislike it , France could well buy back the 60 UAE -9s , sell 12 of them for cheap with a nice weapon and maintenance deal to Romania and use the rest of the -9s to : 1) replace our -5s here in Dijon , 2) slowdown the Rafale delivery to the FAF and MN to accelerate the delivery for potential buyers .

We 're many here in France to worry about such a deal . As it stands , Dassault 's Rafale line maximum production is 3 to 4 aircraft per month (around 40 aircraft/year) and at that rate , Dassault could fullfil every deals (French + abroad) and deliver on time , but Dassault doesn 't want to do so (?!) . I know this is new to you , but you have to trust me on this .

There is some budget problem and Dassault is not sure that the French DGA will order in time the the next 60 planned Rafales . Another proof of the French cock-up regarding the calender delivery . So , Dassault doesn 't want to take any risk .

Instead , France could well use two Squadrons of -9s for 2 or 3 years before getting Rafale F3s in numbers , then the -9s could replace our old M2000 Cs and Bs for another 5 years .

This kind of deal is very cheap for the French DGA and we sell some to Romania . Of course , it delays the next two Squadrons of Rafale F3s by 2 to 3 years . This is what I woory about .

Regarding the Romanian logistics , swapping Mig-21s for F-16s or -9s is the same : they will need to adapt .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

gf0012-aust 10/3/2009 8:34:10 PM

Regarding the Romanian logistics , swapping Mig-21s for F-16s or -9s is the same : they will need to adapt .

acquisition and assessments are also about through life issues, about partner synergies, about force resupply, about worst case delivery scenarios.

in the case of the F-16 it has a far greater user base, far greater logistics footprint (all the partners can hot swap and exchange, and as an example, RAAF recently did the same for a busted USMC Shornet in Aust for exercises). Two of our partners in a recent DACT exercise in Aust used each others F-16 spares as part of the scenario. It means that they can leverage off a far bigger supply base, it means that they can get access to far disparate doctrine and experience base - and exchange of info within type is a fundamental learning and experience tool.

the F-16 also has partner development already established. Israel, Singapore, Japan all have localised and specialised developments which are accessible to others.

The issue of these other footprints are just as important as the issue of fighting via a specific platform.

Quote Reply

RedParadize 10/17/2009 8:58:31 PM

Well they dont realy need to sell them. Even if the mirage 2000 cannot be compared to actual plane, Its a good, cheap alternative to the Rafale. Perfect for bomb truck job.

Since France already operate +- 300 of them, they could also be used as spare part.

Quote Reply

gf0012-aust 10/17/2009 9:12:23 PM

Well they dont realy need to sell them. Even if the mirage 2000 cannot be compared to actual plane, Its a good, cheap alternative to the Rafale. Perfect for bomb truck job.

Since France already operate +- 300 of them, they could also be used as spare part.

Its not that simple. Its a non trivial issue.

The cost of the plane itself is bugger all compared to the through life support issues. Then there are the force and logistics integration issues. You cannot selectively cut up the cake. There is no shortage of evidence where countries bought plaforms at outright gifted, cot neg or cost neutral rates because the seller saw the opportunity to leverage elsewhere. Invariably, these countries ended up paying through the nose when they needed parts, needed to establish supplementary training models, needed to integrate that training and witness impact on basic doctrine changes etc....

There's no such thing as "spare parting" based on a cheap initial platform price defending the decision. it will bite as soon as that country goes through routine maint, starts to realise that it impacts on force planning, mission planning, sensor integration, combat training with disparate systems etc....

thats the fallacy of going for refurbs on "newly introduced" assets. there's no free lunch on this - and all the evidence is sitting there for everyone to see. unfort beancounting does not always see the big picture outside the prism of immediate financial gain.

The Indians are a classic standout example of what happens when you don't get these development and integration constructs right. They understand it now, but they are paying the price for false economy and a misguided desire to let nationalism dictate procurement and development policy.

Quote Reply

RedParadize 10/17/2009 9:15:47 PM

Well they dont realy need to sell them. Even if the mirage 2000 cannot be compared to actual plane, Its a good, cheap alternative to the Rafale. Perfect for bomb truck job.

Since France already operate +- 300 of them, they could also be used as spare part.

Quote Reply

RedParadize 10/17/2009 9:23:49 PM

Hops... sorry about that.

Maybe i was not clear, my point was that France could keep them.

I dont think France would have integration issue, after all, its a french plane. and they have many of them.

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 NEXT