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Subject: Hatoyama's dream : Kick Americans out of Japan.
SlowMan    9/2/2009 5:34:06 PM
< link > < link > Newly elected Japanese government's diplomatic friction with the US is beginning, starting with stopping of refueling of US warships near Afghanistan by JMSDF ships and removal of Futenma US Marine airbase in Okinawa completely off Japan instead of another place within Japan. Japan Democratic Party is expected to call for a ban on entry of US nuclear submarines into Japanese ports next. It is interesting to note that Japan Democratic Party long called for complete removal of US troops from Japan, with single exception of the 7th fleet in Yokosuka and convert Self Defense Force into a full military in the name of self-reliance on national defense. Ironically, Japan Democratic Party's drive to kick Americans out of Japan would only increase its desire to acquire advanced American weapons since they would need American weapons to fill the void of American troop removal. Expect Japan's demand for F-22 to get only louder.
 
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maruben    Words of wisdom from Hatoyama   9/13/2009 10:49:20 AM
Thursday, Sept. 10, 2009

Words of wisdom from Hatoyama


It was just this side of comical. The leader of the new ruling party of Japan barely finishes acknowledging his Democratic Party of Japan's landslide win and a public relations disaster strikes. The result: an ignominious international climb-down.

What happened was not an ideal opening act for the next prime minister of the troubled country that boasts the world's second largest economy, after that of its ally, the United States. It might even have been called a really bad start. So let's see what went on.

 

Before the election, a Japanese magazine published an essay by Yukio Hatoyama, the soon-to-be prime minister of Japan and leader of the Democratic Party of Japan. It thoughtfully challenged some of the operational tenets of the "American century" (the previous one). "My Political Philosophy," decried the cold inhuman edges of globalization, raised (as have some in the Chinese elite and other global voices) doubts about the future global centrality of the dollar, called for a greater sense of shared opportunity among the nations of East Asia (and the world) and wondered how long Uncle Sam could remain the Big Global Bopper.

Had Hatoyama not been who he was (the next leader of Japan), and Nathan Gardels not been who he was (a whip-smart Los Angeles-based public intellectual and media entrepreneur whose Global Viewpoint Network has 35 million readers through many of the world's top newspapers), these not unreasonable thoughts, written in Japanese, would have remained in Japan.

Instead, Gardels arranged for an English translation and had his syndicate do its global information-technology distribution thing. Before long, the essay (or excerpts of it) appeared in important papers around the world.

Well, the shame, the disgrace! A Japanese leader should actually proffer an original thought or two — indeed, ideas that might not automatically reek of U.S. political orthodoxy! By midweek, Hatoyama was on the trans-Pacific horn, more or less bowing and scraping to U.S. President Barack Obama (who probably had to suppress a chuckle), and disclaiming any intent to question the fundamentals of the U.S.-Japan alliance. "The Japan-U.S. alliance is the axis of Japan's foreign policies," the impending new prime minister declaimed.

That's comforting, but first things first: Hatoyama shouldn't have apologized for anything! The fact is that many of us Americans have similar concerns about the brutality of unregulated globalization, about gross value systems that are entirely materialistic, about poor people with no health insurance, housing or prospects.

What's more, Hatoyama's essay was anything but bomb-throwing- revolutionary. It was, in fact, a polite and mild restatement of traditional Japanese values in an age when free-market fundamentalism have been uprooting social economies like suicide bombers have been terrorizing Western cafes. "Globalism," he wrote, "has progressed without any regard for noneconomic values."

He's right, and it should come as no global shock that a thoughtful Japanese leader would want to point this out. For a long time, Japan has been perhaps the most socialist of all capitalist societies. The hard work and aggressiveness were all present in that society; but so were deep social values that (for example) were reluctant to treat workers as easily disposable economic factors (i.e., laid-off or fired labor and who cares?) or to regard titanic and insulting income gaps between the elite and the common man as natural, desirable or ethical.

What's more, if the U.S. establishment is going to seize up into a paroxysm of paranoia every time someone suggests that the 21st century will not prove as American as the 20th century, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration had better legalize medicinal marijuana for the elite's nerves quickly. As the well-traveled Gardels puts it, "Only Americans with an outdated sense of U.S. supremacy, or with vested special interests, could quarrel with the obvious."

And it is a plain fact that Japan's current dilemma, wrote Hatoyama, is to be "caught between the U.S., which is fighting to retain its position as the world's dominant power, and China, which is seeking ways to become dominant."

The China question does hover over Japan. It is quite true that the recent election was not a plebiscite about China i

 
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SlowMan       9/13/2009 3:24:43 PM
@ gf0012-aust

> Subs on exercise aren't "tested" like some idiotic version of mech wars.

Actually they do, in the free engagement practice session of RIMPAC, where the enemy fleet comprising of attack subs and a few surface destroyers take on the coalition carrier group team to simulate naval battle.

This is where U-209 was found to be the most difficult sub to detect of all by defenders. In one specific case, there was a U-209 and an Oyashio class only 1 km distance apart, with U-209 was observing the Oyashio sub but the Oyashio sub was totally unaware of U-209's presense, until U-209 decided to disengage and went into high throttle. This is why the US Navy and JMSDF suddenly started showing an interest in German sub tech, as U-2XX series were the quietest-running subs they ever encountered.

JMSDF submarine fleet is considered to be not as strong as its surface fleet, with Chinese Navy already holding a submarine fleet stength superiority over JMSDF and Korean Navy expected to reach parity with JMSDF by mid-2010s, some 7 years before their surface fleet reaches strength parity with JMSDF in the early 2020s.

@ maruben

> 1. Why is there the need to post about Hatoyama in the fighters and bombers board?

Rmoval/Reduction of USAF/USMC fighter fleet from Okinawa requires a complete rewrite of US air campaign strategy in the Pacific. There is a reason why the US didn't return Okinawa to Japan until 1975.

> if South Korea tries to control Takeshima.

??? Takeshima has been under Korean control for the past 60 years. It is Japan that is expected to make first military moves to reclaim the islets, not Korea. Then Koreans are expected to retaliate by landing on Tsushima, a beautiful Japanese islands of 30,000 + many tourists, which many soon find more Korean Marines on the island than island residents themselves once the war breaks out.
 
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gf0012-aust       9/13/2009 4:02:37 PM

@ gf0012-aust > Subs on exercise aren't "tested" like some idiotic version of mech wars.

Actually they do, in the free engagement practice session of RIMPAC, where the enemy fleet comprising of attack subs and a few surface destroyers take on the coalition carrier group team to simulate naval battle.

This is where U-209 was found to be the most difficult sub to detect of all by defenders. In one specific case, there was a U-209 and an Oyashio class only 1 km distance apart, with U-209 was observing the Oyashio sub but the Oyashio sub was totally unaware of U-209's presense, until U-209 decided to disengage and went into high throttle. This is why the US Navy and JMSDF suddenly started showing an interest in German sub tech, as U-2XX series were the quietest-running subs they ever encountered.

they don't.  thats why they're called "partial prosecutions"  - but you can pretend that you kn ow better.  Its pretty damn apparent that you've got no idea.  

btw, a few years ago  I worked on sig management for 209's.  hence why I know you're full of it.  nice try - no bananas.
my background is in sig management for UDT - but don't let that stop you from crapping on.
 
 
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SlowMan       9/13/2009 4:18:50 PM
@ gf0012-aust

> they don't.

They do, complete with independent scorers onboard to keep track of who killed who.

> I worked on sig management for 209's

That's odd since Austrialia is not a U-209 user, nor are Brtain and the US, other countries where you might have sought employment.
 
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Rufus       9/13/2009 4:44:14 PM
Slowman, you are really really really making a fool of yourself at this point. 
 
Just shut up kid, you aren't funny and you sure as hell aren't insightful. 
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       9/13/2009 5:08:20 PM

@ gf0012-aust > they don't.

They do, complete with independent scorers onboard to keep track of who killed who.

good god kid.  white force are there for a reason.  its not a competition of platforms 

@ gf0012-aust > > I worked on sig management for 209's

That's odd since Austrialia is not a U-209 user, nor are Brtain and the US, other countries where you might have sought employment.
    and yet you aren't aware that australia was given all the data on the 209 and its successors when we wanted to make it a maxi fleet sub.  eg we got all the data on the 209's for assessment.  you also seem to be completely oblivious that we work with the sth koreans.  you seem to be completely oblivious that we work with HDW/Kockums and a raft of other UDT players who are wanting to flog their next platform for the 2020-2025 project.  You seem to be completely oblivious that we all share data because we need to make sure that we know who'd who when we wander around in shared waters.  You seem to be completely unaware that we exchange data because it's essential for some of the firing and control systems so that we don't do a blue on blue.

seriously, you are a first class troll. 
 
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SlowMan       9/13/2009 6:04:26 PM
@ gf0012-aust

> its not a competition of platforms

No, it's actually a naval version of paintball battle. Certain class of subs perform better than others.

> yet you aren't aware that australia was given all the data on the 209 and its successors when we wanted to make it a maxi fleet sub.

And this is what you said here related to Collins class < link >

"We should have probably gone with the 3000+ tonne australian version of the 209 (in hindsight)."
"The japanese boats are legacy designs of  the US Barbels."

Since Collins class was supposed to be almost a disaster and a blown up 209 would have been better according to YOU, can we say that

209 >>>> Collins >> Oyashio ???
 
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SlowMan       9/13/2009 11:40:21 PM
Here is something for Maruben.
 
F-2's primary duty is to engage Korean Airforce's fighters over Takeshima during Takeshima Invasion(Aka The Grand Naval Showdown).
 
A Sankei article on development failure of F-2 and how "evil" Americans "used" them to both screw up F-2 program and "steal" valuable material and AESA module tech that was later used on F-22 and F-35 < link >

"&>5903;&>5588;&>5126;&&8360;&>7231;&<2392;&<2375;&<2390;&<2399;&>2833;&>6684;&<2391;&<2418;&<2289;&>9190;&>4382;&<2434;&&1309;&<2414;&<2394;&<2369;&<2428;&<2400;&&3258;&&0001;&&3258;&>2312;&<2395;&&3310;&<2358;&<2371;&<2392;&<2399;&<2391;&<2365;&<2427;&<2392;&<2398;&>9702;&&0001;&<2391;&&6814;&>5731;&>9992;&>5126;&&8360;&>7231;&>9992;&<2392;&<2375;&<2390;&&3322;&&1354;&&3258;&&4907;&&8538;&<9977;&>7810;&>2522;&>2320;&<2394;&<2393;&<2395;&&7197;&>0633;&<2373;&<2428;&<2390;&<2356;&<2427;&<2290;&<2375;&<2363;&<2375;&<2289;&>5126;&&8360;&&3021;&>1147;&<2395;&<2388;&<2356;&<2390;&<2418;&<2300;&O5318;&O5298;&<2399;&&8867;&>2269;&<2398;&O5318;&O5297;&O5301;&O5323;&<2395;&>1155;&<2427;&<2290;&&1481;&>3798;&<2398;&>1046;&&1354;&>7177;&<2399;&>2833;&<2387;&<2383;&<2301;&<2392;&&1354;&<2398;&>1191;&&2773;&<2383;&<2385;&<2399;&>2022;&<2367;&<2290;"

"While it maybe unsuitable for attack missions, F2 can still freely dance without a bomb load and has been deployed at Misawa base as an intercepter. However, the brave warriors of sky cries out&<2300;F2 is inferior to Korean F15K. We have lost air-dominance over Takeshima&<2301;about its combat capability."
 
Still not convinced that JASDF sees Korea(as in South, not North) as its primary adversary in that JASDF offer's rant???? The same goes true for Korea, where Japan, not North Korea, is seen as their no. 1 security threat for their navy and air force.
 
 
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SlowMan       9/13/2009 11:43:59 PM
Sorry, broken font. I will try again.
 
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""While it maybe unsuitable for attack missions, F2 can still freely dance without a bomb load and has been deployed at Misawa base as an intercepter. However, the brave warriors of sky cries outuF2 is inferior to Korean F15K. We have lost air-dominance over Takeshimavin its combat capability."
 
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maruben    Bad article   9/14/2009 2:43:01 AM

Using an article like this which is based on anonymous source to prove that somebody is planning a war against South Korea over Takeshima is an inadequate way to prove your point. That somebody in Japan is worry that F-2 will face the F-15K shows only the fact that the article you use is, at least to the part you want to quote, very poor quality, because it will be very funny to see basically two Strike Fighters (F-2 vs F-15K) competing for the air superiority. Besides, it will be funnier to think that the Japan Air Self Defense Force is planning to use the F-2 for that (air superiority aircraft) role fighting an F-15K carrying AMRAAM when the F-2 can not. The outcome of the dogfight will be decided in favor of the F-15K because of the better missile among other things. Maybe one day the JASDF will use the F-2 as an air superiority aircraft but that will be the result of a necessity under very bad and adverse conditions.

Please next time pick better sources, right now they are not helping your case and improve your Japanese, online translations are not good, and be sure that this article only wants to mention the long list of problems of the F-2 not to fight against South Korea (Kankoku).

 
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