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gf0012-aust 9/11/2009 12:55:37 PM

Once again, you are not aware of this because your information is restricted to English sources only.

and for goodness sake, don't keep on trotting this out as some lame excuse to stay in the debate - not all of us are from english speaking backgrounds either... and even those who aren't, and who work in this space have access to non english tech data and sources. It goes with the job. and don't trot out the osint excuse either as that issue is way past lame. you don't seem to understand that japanese maritime publications which have no nominal western circulation are distributed to all of the modern "old guard" western naval forces. guess what - those pubs are only printed in japanese - yet somehow we all manage to get them translated (or surprise surprise, have staff who can speak more than english!). I guess you haven't seen how many staff there are in the USN and allied navies who are of chinese, japanese and korean heritage. In fact, one of the USN posters on here is 2nd gen Korean, there is another who's heritage is Japanese. You of course, imply by your inept but veiled xenophobic responses that if its a western navy then their intel and resourcing must be limited to english speakers.

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SlowMan 9/11/2009 1:01:10 PM

@ gf0012-aus

And after all that rant, you fail to state that Oyashio class sub is quieter than a U-214.

Oyashio class has been extensively analyzed and studied by rival navies.

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sentinel28a 9/11/2009 4:33:11 PM

Kim Jong Il's rusty forces would be crushed within a matter of week.

Sure, after he's flattened and maybe nuked a couple of cities. And if the ROK really is concentrating on Japan, Kim will probably achieve surprise. (The ROK is, of course, not concentrating on Japan, being of sound minds.)

Korea actually has a decent relationship with China due to lack of an ongoing territorial dispute. Both share "Japanese are worse than Nazis" views.

That I can buy, but Kim would have ceased being a problem (and probably breathing) a long time ago were it not for China.

Japan is the only country with whom Korea has an ongoing territorial dispute with at the moment, thus Japan ranks as no. 1 security threat on Korean military's arms build up program, and Korean Navy and Airforce are rebuilding to engage JMSDF and JASDF respectively.

There is, of course, Korea itself. The one that both sides claim is theirs. The one that a war was fought over back in 1950-53 and a peace treaty never signed. That's a rather large ongoing territorial dispute.

Again, I want to see evidence. Words from Korean defense ministers. Words from Korean politicians. Words from Korean military personnel.

And the hundreds of millions of square miles of sea surrounding it.

I think somebody either failed math or geography. "Hundreds of millions of square miles" is the Pacific Farking Ocean. The Sea of Japan is 390,000 square miles, most of which is international waters anyway.

This is actually a sea territory dispute, because who owns that "a few rocks" could shift the EEZ borderline by 50 miles to east or west at least, and all the riches beneath.

That much is true, so I grant you that.

And many movies and novels covering "The Grand Naval Showdown".

Do you read what you post? I'm supposed to believe you on the basis of novels and movies?

If that's the case, Korea is screwed. I read in novels and movies that Japan has mecha. BIG mecha. Must be true...I read it in a novel!

Moreover, these novels and movies must be so good no one but you has seen them. I did a Google search for "Great Naval Showdown Between South Korea and Japan." The only thing I got that was close was a Domei news report...from 1944. (And that was about Saipan.)

That was in the old days.

2004 was the old days?

Japan declares the islets as its own territory in latest editions of its annual national defense white paper, and formulate strategy for its recovery.

Yes, and they also claim the Kuriles as their territory. Canada holds some islands off the coast of Maine that technically belong to the US and station Coast Guardsmen there to make sure we don't sneak in some Marines one night. I don't see us going to war with Canada.

"The Grand Naval Showdown" is one of two wars that is Japan's peace constitution kosher. A preemptive strike on NK's nuclear or ICBM launch facility is considered unconstitutional, but the Grand Naval Showdown is interpreted as perfectly constitutional.

Because Japan would never launch a preemptive attack that might hurt someone's feelings. Or to avoid having Tokyo turned into radioactive slag.

Here's a report from UPI-Asia, on how the South Koreans are girding their loins against Hatoyama's plans for Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere II:

Koreas hopeful about Hatoyama's Japan

By Lee Jong-Heon
UPI Correspondent

South Korea is also hopeful about improved ties between Seoul and Tokyo as the incoming government, led by the Democratic Party of Japan, is expected to address history disputes that have long been a source of confrontation between the two neighbors.

The DPJ won more than 300 of the 480 seats in the lower house of Parliament, enough to ensure that their party leader Yukio Hatoyama is installed as prime minister in a special session of Par

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gf0012-aust 9/11/2009 5:15:35 PM

@ gf0012-aus > And after all that rant, you fail to state that Oyashio class sub is quieter than a U-214.

Oyashio class has been extensively analyzed and studied by rival navies.

LOL, of course it has. Which is another reason why everyone knows you're full of it. The UDT community is a small community. Its not like the internet. :)

you're making walter mitty look like einstein.

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flyingarty 9/12/2009 4:16:09 PM

Expect Japan's demand for F-22 to get only louder.

Except the US has stopped making the F-22 dimwad! If anyone is in line for more F-22's, its the USAF. Further, Japan cant kick the US out of anywhere it does not want to leave.

Japan is glad to have US protection from people like Kim Jung IL.Think they want us to withdraw the ABM umbrella, didnt think so....

Flyingarty

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SlowMan 9/13/2009 12:11:01 AM

@ gf0012-aust

> The UDT community is a small community. Its not like the internet.

Then you must be aware of Oyashio class's poor showing against U-209 in past RIMPACs?

@ flyingarty

> Further, Japan cant kick the US out of anywhere it does not want to leave.

But Japan is trying to do just that in Okinawa.

> Think they want us to withdraw the ABM umbrella, didnt think so....

Surely they do, so that they could their own nukes.

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gf0012-aust 9/13/2009 12:40:27 AM

@ gf0012-aust > The UDT community is a small community. Its not like the internet.

Then you must be aware of Oyashio class's poor showing against U-209 in past RIMPACs?

mate you are a first class idiot. RIMPAC is a structured exercise - a maritime version of Red Flag and Blue Flag

There are no winners or losers, platforms are tasked to undertake missions to stress an event. Subs on exercise aren't "tested" like some idiotic version of mech wars.

Thanks again for publicly demonstrating that your a teenage wannabe. BTW, there are any number of people in here that are involved with RIMPAC and Talisman Saber

Go back to your comic books and stop wasting everyones time.

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maruben National Interests 9/13/2009 1:31:58 AM

1. Why is there the need to post about Hatoyama in the fighters and bombers board?

2. Among the last actions of the Japanese MOD is difficult to see that there is a war planning for South Korea. Few days ago the Japanese MOD has announced that the JMSDF Destroyer Myoko will test its new Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) using the SM-3 Missile in Hawaii in October. Myoko is the third destroyer with Aegis BMD after Kongo and Chokai. Here the main issue is the North Korean Ballitic Missiles. Also as many of you know the JMSDF decided to build next year larger DDH (helicopter destroyer) for antisubmarine operations and anti cruise missiles defense. Basically this is for China. Sadly for Slowman his/her nation is not a priority for our military and naval policy even if South Korea tries to control Takeshima. There are many other things that demand our national attention.

3. Please read "Goguryeo Controversies" from h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G... to grasp if there or not more important issues between China and both Koreas than Japan.

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maruben Real 'fraternity' with U.S. 9/13/2009 10:42:51 AM

Sunday, Sept. 13, 2009

Real 'fraternity' with U.S.

By KAZUO OGOURA

Democratic Party of Japan leader Yukio Hatoyama's article on the "Banner of Fraternity" — particularly the part that deals with globalization, Americanism and Japan's relations with her Asian neighbors — has drawn many comments both in Japan and the United States.

Most of them expressed concern about the ambiguity of his tilt toward a "more independent stance" and his emphasis on "closer relations with Asian countries." Some appear to be annoyed with his criticism of the excess of market principles and globalization.

Indeed, the article, at least in the abridged English version — which omits the major part of the reference to the "spirit of fraternity" — seems to be dotted with expressions that may cause some concern in American minds. However, the reactions by some American commentators, as well as by some Japanese so-called diplomatic experts, seem a little exaggerated in their tone of dismay and warnings about this article.

It may therefore be useful for us, from the standpoint of future Japan-U.S. relations, to analyze the background of these warnings. In other words, if one analyzes the reasons and circumstances that lie behind the recent ripples over the article, one could draw several lessons that both Japanese and Americans have to keep in mind in dealing with bilateral relations.

The important point that we have to reflect upon is the rapidity and intensity of the formation of an "alliance" between some American "experts" on Japan and Japanese intellectuals who have been close to the conservative camp in Japan. They tend to echo each other whenever the Japanese side tries to "review" some aspects of the Japan-U.S. alliance.

The concerns or criticisms voiced by American "experts" have frequently been quoted by Japanese security or diplomatic "experts" as signs, or potential signs of strain, in Japan-U.S. relations. Then voices begin to be heard in Japan that there is a danger or risk of deterioration in relations with the U.S. These voices apparently take it for granted that any bad impact upon Japan-U.S relations should be avoided at all cost and that the upholding of good Japan-U.S. relations is, in itself, the most important priority in the diplomacy of Japan toward the U.S.

In the eyes of some Japanese "experts," keeping up good relations with the U.S. is essential for maintaining the credibility of the alliance. However sound and reasonable it may appear at first sight, this approach confuses the question of credibility — based on the balance of interests — with the absence of criticism of the balance of the alliance. Convergence of strategic interests is more important than friendly sentiment.

Moreover, if the U.S. administration refuses to review what the Japanese conservative government agreed with the Bush administration on the grounds that a state-to-state agreement should not be altered as the result of a change in administration, it will be legitimate for Japan and Europe to demand that volte-faces of the U.S. administration with regard to the Iraq war or nuclear or environmental issues are not acceptable if they run counter to past international understandings with the Americans.

In any event, the argument that calm, good relations with the U.S. are the top priority for Japan is wrong. A truly good relationship is one in which both sides frankly discuss the merits and demerits of any part of their relations. Attempts to discourage Japanese comments that taste bitter to Americans do not, in the long run, serve to promote good relations between Japan and the U.S.

At present, there is a political danger that some conservative elements in Japan and their American counterparts are trying to form an invisible alliance to weaken the diplomatic credibility of new Japanese political forces by shouting that such and such comments or moves will have a bad impact on friendly relations with the U.S. Sensible people on both sides of the Pacific should defy such cries and emancipate Japan-U.S. relations from the hands of "good-relations-first advocates."

At the same time, the new administration in Japan should understand a sentimental rebellion against "Americanism" does not serve any purpose and that Japan's relations with the U.S. should be fundamentally based on Japan's strategic considerations, taki

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maruben In Hatoyama's 'fraternity,' people the end, not means 9/13/2009 10:46:41 AM

Wednesday, Sept. 9, 2009

In Hatoyama's 'fraternity,' people the end, not means

LDP served purpose, festered; 'globalism' gutted communities

By YUKIO HATOYAMA

An opinion piece by Democratic Party of Japan President Yukio Hatoyama that was originally published in the September edition of the Japanese monthly journal Voice has triggered controversy in the United States for appearing to have an antiglobalization bent.

In the piece, part of which was published on The New York Times' Web site and by other newspapers, Hatoyama in part said he feels "that as a result of the failure of the Iraq war and the financial crisis, the era of the U.S.-led globalism is coming to an end and that we are moving away from a unipolar world led by the U.S. toward an era of multipolarity.''

Following is the full text of an official English-language copy of the opinion piece titled "My Political Philosophy," made available to Kyodo News recently:

The banner of party politician Ichiro Hatoyama

Among Japanese people today, "ai" is a particularly popular word which is usually translated as "love." Therefore, when I speak of "yuai," which is written with the characters for "friendship" and "love," many people seem to picture a concept that is soft and weak. However, when I speak of "yuai," I am referring to a concept that is actually rather different. What I am referring to is fraternity, as in "liberte, egalite, fraternite," the slogan of the French Revolution.

When my grandfather Ichiro Hatoyama translated one of the works of Count Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi into Japanese, he rendered the word fraternity as "yuai" rather than the existing translation of "hakuai." Therefore, when I refer to "yuai," I am not referring to something tender but rather to a strong, combative concept that was a banner of revolution.

Eighty-five years ago, in 1923, Coudenhove-Kalergi published his work "Pan-Europa," starting off the Pan-Europa Movement which eventually led to the formation of the European Union. Coudenhove-Kalergi was the son of an Austrian noble, who was posted to Japan as his country's minister, and Mitsuko Aoyama, the daughter of an antiques dealer from Azabu, Tokyo. One of the count's middle names was the Japanese name Eijiro.

In 1935, Coudenhove-Kalergi published "The Totalitarian State against Man." The work includes severe criticisms of Soviet communism and Nazism as well as the reflections on the self-indulgence of capitalism in leaving such ideologies to flourish. Coudenhove-Kalergi believed that freedom forms the foundation of human dignity and that it is therefore unsurpassed in value. In order to guarantee freedom, he advocated a system of private ownership. However, he was despondent at how the severe social inequalities produced by capitalism had helped give rise to communism by creating an environment in which people aspired to equality, and also at how this had resulted in the emergence of national socialism as an alternative to both capitalism and communism. "Freedom without fraternity leads to anarchy. Equality without fraternity leads to tyranny" (translation of the quote in Japanese).

Coudenhove-Kalergi discussed how both totalitarianism, which tried to achieve equality at all costs, and capitalism, which had fallen into self-indulgence, resulted in disregard for human dignity and as such resulted in the treatment of human beings as a means instead of an end. Although freedom and equality are important for human beings, if they are followed to fundamentalist extremes, they can both result in immeasurable horrors. Therefore, Coudenhove-Kalergi recognized the necessity of a concept that could achieve a balance and maintain respect for humanity. That is what he sought in the idea of fraternity.

"Man is an end and not a means. The state is a means and not an end." These are the first lines of "The Totalitarian State against Man." At the time Coudenhove-Kalergi was putting ideas together for this publication, two different forms of totalitarianism were prominent in Europe, and his home country of Austria was being threatened with annexation by Hitler's Germany.

Coudenhove-Kalergi traveled all around Europe advocating the cause of Pan-Europeanism and criticizing Hitler and Stalin. However, his efforts were in vain. Austria fell to the Nazis and Coudenhove-Kalergi was forced to flee in disappointed exile to the United States. The movie "Casablanca" is said to be based on his flight. When

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