Hatoyama's dream : Kick Americans out of Japan.

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Rufus 9/10/2009 2:51:14 PM

"ROK Army and ROKMC is still directed at NK, but ROK Navy and ROKAF's primary mission is to engage JMSDF and JASDF in the widely discussed "Grand Naval Showdown" and assumes Japan as primary adversary in their their arms build up program."

LOL, "widely discussed?" "Grand Naval Showdown" (In caps no-less...)

We get it slowman, you want Korea to prove something by beating the big bad Japanese. Forgive the rest of us for thinking you are pathetic to hope for a war nobody wants just because you think it would be a boost to your pride.

Maybe you should follow a football team or a ping-pong player or something huh?

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SlowMan 9/10/2009 4:01:17 PM

@ sentinel28a

> SlowMan, ever hear of this really big country to the north of you that the rest of the world calls the People's Republic of China?

This really big country north of me is Canada, not China.

> The same country that invaded South Korea in 1951 after coming to the rescue of Kim Il-Sung?

Then left when the war was over. No hard feelings there, I believe.

> Those supersonic missiles and AWACS might just come in handy against the Sovremennys and Su-30s of the PLAN/PLAAF, don't you think?

Any war with China automatically triggers automatic US intervention in accordance with mutual defense treaty. "The Grand Naval Showdown" means no US intervention, the US already told they would be staying out of that mess. Thus both combatants must fight the "Grand Naval Showdown" entirely of their own strength. It is gray area in security issues like that is triggering arms race in Far East.

Accordingly, the war with Japan is considered a far bigger threat than a potential war with China, a real possible war scenario depending on the instability of Japanese leadership.

> Or do you consider Japan a greater threat than the PRC?

What I consider is irrelevant, I am simply conveying how things are seen over there. And yes, Japan is seen as far more grave threat than either North Korea(a bankrupt country that would be overrun in a week if the war was to break out) or China(Korea ranks right at the bottom of threat ranking according to Chinese public poll survey, lower than even China's blood "brother" North Korea. US ranks as China's No. 1 security threat, Japan No. 2 by a few points behind. Together, something like 85% of Chinese public consider the US and Japan to be China's greatest security threats) over there.

Yes, sounds totally crazy, but how Koreans see the Far East is totally different from how Westerners see the Far East. Likewise Japan may have excellent reputation among Westerners, but Japan has a terrible reputation in Far East, basically a country of war-criminals worse than Nazis hiding its imperialist ambitions in the closet. "Worse than Nazis" reference come from the fact that a Nazi diplomat who witnessed Nanjing Massacre wired back to Hitler requesting that he intervene to stop the massacre. The Nazi diplomat didn't know he was talking to the wrong person, but the event at Nanjing was horrific even to a Nazi. So yes, Japanese imperialists are seen as being worse than Nazis in China and Korea.

@ Rufus

> you want Korea to prove something by beating the big bad Japanese.

No, I would pop the popcorn and tune in CNN for live coverage of The Grand Naval Showdown. It would be a sight to behold.

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Rufus 9/10/2009 4:26:45 PM

"No, I would pop the popcorn and tune in CNN for live coverage of The Grand Naval Showdown. It would be a sight to behold."

You are disgusting.

Everyone here discusses military/security issues because they have some interest, but an actual shooting war is not some kind of sporting event put on for your amusement.

I think that is the fundamental difference between you and the adults here.

You treat this all as some kind of game where if "your" team wins you have bragging rights. You think it would be entertaining to watch people die horrible deaths fighting over a handful of useless rocks somewhere between Japan and Korea.

I can say with absolute honesty that I pity you and I hope you one day learn about the things that matter in life.

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gf0012-aust 9/10/2009 4:40:59 PM

So yes, Japanese imperialists are seen as being worse than Nazis in China and Korea.

and that is what is so deliciously hypocritical when we see chinese nationalists carry on about Nanjing. They're happy to pillory and condemn the japanese army for nanjing (and quite rightly so) - but then conveniently ignore their own national history as recently as 1948 on when the chinese govt under various social kleptocrats murdered up to 20million of their own people during the halcyon days of Mao.

go figure.

your obsession with the Sth Koreans - and your belief that the SthKor Navy is a math for the JMSDF today is laughable.

They've had more years working with CEC, were the primary developers for CEC outside of the US and have probably the best conventional sub force in the world. You can take the pi$$ out of their military through ill informed bigotry - but on any sunday they are the only asian maritime force that can belt the PLAN into submission without any assistance from anyone.

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SlowMan 9/10/2009 11:21:37 PM

@ Rufus

> You are disgusting.

If you cannot stop it, then you might as well watch it and learn from the battle. After all, all the recent wars since 1960s have been fought between unequal combatants(US vs North Vietnam, US vs Iraq, US vs Taliban, etc). It will be the first time since WW2 where you have two first class combatants fighting with similar level of equipment and training.

> You think it would be entertaining to watch people die horrible deaths fighting over a handful of useless rocks somewhere between Japan and Korea.

The scary thing is that these people are actually willing to sacrifice their people's lives to fight this war, and they would not have shortage of volunteers to fight.

@ gf0012-aust

> but then conveniently ignore their own national history as recently as 1948 on when the chinese govt under various social kleptocrats murdered up to 20million of their own people during the halcyon days of Mao.

Most of death toll was from famine. Yea, it was the result of social chaos and stupid economic planning, but not a direct mass murder.

> and your belief that the SthKor Navy is a math for the JMSDF today

I never said as such. The naval fleet strength parity will not come until 2020 at the earliest under the current Korean naval build up schedule, and this is where the Tsushima invasion plan came as a temporary counter-measure until the strength parity is reached. By 2020, Korean Navy is expected to have 3 strike fleets(each one is roughly equal to JMSDF's front-line escourt fleet, which JMSDF has four and could use maximum of two for the "Grand Naval Showdown") and match JMSDF in sub count. JMSDF is well aware of this narrowing gap and this is why there is great temptation on JMSDF's side to engage in this "Grand Naval Showdown" now, which is considered to be Japan's peace consitution kosher.

> They've had more years working with CEC, were the primary developers for CEC outside of the US and have probably the best conventional sub force in the world.

Not at all. German U-214 series is currently the most advanced conventional powered sub in service today, and I recall reading about Japan possibly importing propulsion tech of German subs as means of diversifying weapons technology source. U-214 is something that even JMSDF would consider adapting.

> but on any sunday they are the only asian maritime force that can belt the PLAN into submission without any assistance from anyone.

Today, sure. 2020, don't bet on it.

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sentinel28a 9/11/2009 12:16:28 AM

If the South Koreans are truly dumb enough to believe Japan is a greater threat than Kim Jong-Il or China, then they deserve what they're going to get. If the Japanese are truly lunatic enough to go to war over a few rocks, they too deserve what they're going to get.

I did a Google search for "War Between South Korea and Japan." I found three articles talking about Takeshima/Dokdo (3 out of 30 in the first three pages). Only one--an opinion piece in Asia Times--mentions the remote possibility of war (they use the word "skirmish") over the rocks. And that is in the context of a sudden US withdrawal from East Asia, which isn't likely, even with Obama in office. The two other articles stressed that Japan and South Korea were working towards a more bilateral relationship vis a vis North Korea and China (which is kind of strange, since according to you, SlowMan, the ROKs assume they'll be at war with Japan before they're at war with Nutbar of the North), and that the Japanese government halted an attempt by Japanese right-wingers to plant a flag on the rocks.

So, I come to the conclusion that you think the Great Naval Showdown will happen because you want it to.

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Rufus 9/11/2009 12:33:35 AM

What?!

You didn't find countless articles discussing the impending "Grand Naval Showdown?" This is CLEARLY a topic of much interest to internet fanboys...

h*tp://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=%22grand+naval+showdown%22&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=250f6443bc2460ad

Did you make that stupid name up yourself slowkid?

"Widely discussed" indeed...

lol

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gf0012-aust 9/11/2009 2:23:38 AM

Not at all. German U-214 series is currently the most advanced conventional powered sub in service today,

what rot. there are only two conventional classes that are able to get to nuke fighting levels and go deep blue - and the 214 is not one of them.

newer is not better. eg the french modified agosta 90's are more than able to take on a late model Kilo. The modified Oyashios are without peer.

btw. I spent a few years on submarine design and construction projects on 2 different sub classes - and there are a number of people in here who can attest to that.

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SlowMan 9/11/2009 10:16:34 AM

@ sentinel28a

> If the South Koreans are truly dumb enough to believe Japan is a greater threat than Kim Jong-Il or China.

Kim Jong Il's rusty forces would be crushed within a matter of week.
Korea actually has a decent relationship with China due to lack of an ongoing territorial dispute. Both share "Japanese are worse than Nazis" views.

Japan is the only country with whom Korea has an ongoing territorial dispute with at the moment, thus Japan ranks as no. 1 security threat on Korean military's arms build up program, and Korean Navy and Airforce are rebuilding to engage JMSDF and JASDF respectively.

> If the Japanese are truly lunatic enough to go to war over a few rocks

And the hundreds of millions of square miles of sea surrounding it.

This is actually a sea territory dispute, because who owns that "a few rocks" could shift the EEZ borderline by 50 miles to east or west at least, and all the riches beneath.

> Only one--an opinion piece in Asia Times--mentions the remote possibility of war

And many movies and novels covering "The Grand Naval Showdown".

> Japanese government halted an attempt by Japanese right-wingers to plant a flag on the rocks.

That was in the old days. Japan declares the islets as its own territory in latest editions of its annual national defense white paper, and formulate strategy for its recovery.

> So, I come to the conclusion that you think the Great Naval Showdown will happen because you want it to.

"The Grand Naval Showdown" is one of two wars that is Japan's peace constitution kosher. A preemptive strike on NK's nuclear or ICBM launch facility is considered unconstitutional, but the Grand Naval Showdown is interpreted as perfectly constitutional.

Japan's three territorial disputes.

1. Senkaku Islands : Japan occupies it at the moment and Chinese are willing to wait out until their navy is strong enough to defeat JMSDF. Plus there is a possibility of US intervention, so Chinese cannot make its moves lightly.
2. Northern Territories : Russia has shown willingness to "sell back" the islands to Japan. So this is considered a matter that could be settled diplomatically.
3. Two Rocks in the Sea of Japan : Korea occupies it at the moment and a diplomatic solution is not possible from both sides. The US already vowed to stay out of this mess. "The Grand Naval Showdown That makes Falklands War look like child's play" is realistically the only war that JMSDF could wage under the current peace constitution because the rocks are considered Japanese territory and any military action to recover them is deemed constitutional.

@ gf0012-aust

> there are only two conventional classes that are able to get to nuke fighting levels and go deep blue - and the 214 is not one of them.

U-214 is super quite and is virtually impossible to detect when on AIP until the first ship goes down. Japanese diesel-electric subs are not U-214 level quite. This is why Japanese defense circle talking about "diversifying" weapons sourcing, and particularly German sub technology. Once again, you are not aware of this because your information is restricted to English sources only.

This is also the reason US Navy wants to drill with multiple U-209s, because they experienced the deadliness of U-209 during past RIMPAC exercises. < link >

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gf0012-aust 9/11/2009 12:39:45 PM

> there are only two conventional classes that are able to get to nuke fighting levels and go deep blue - and the 214 is not one of them.

U-214 is super quite and is virtually impossible to detect when on AIP until the first ship goes down. Japanese diesel-electric subs are not U-214 level quite. This is why Japanese defense circle talking about "diversifying" weapons sourcing, and particularly German sub technology. Once again, you are not aware of this because your information is restricted to English sources only.

This is also the reason US Navy wants to drill with multiple U-209s, because they experienced the deadliness of U-209 during past RIMPAC exercises. <link... >

ROFLMAO. Of course you know much more than other people in here who do actually do this for a living. You're absolutely clueless about concepts and yet you want to talk about UDT capability on a public forum in such magnificent surety.

congrats - you're the ultimate internet road warrior. You do realise how many types of conventionals the USN trains with and has done so quite regularly for decades? You do realise that militaries and their industry cohorts do have non english access? You do realise that RIMPAC is not the only multi-force, multi-national event that asian navies participate in? You do realise that asian navies have staff attached and rotated through partner navies and also have tech staff attached for tech sharing roles? You do realise that asian countries participate in UDT development and do actually use a variety of techs that are integrated 99.9% of the time by non asian providers? You do reaalise that we all get foreign language access and foreign language publications out of necessity?

of course you did.

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