Hatoyama's dream : Kick Americans out of Japan.

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SlowMan 9/8/2009 4:47:02 PM

@ sentinel28a

> Are Okinawans somehow more weak-willed than other people?

Okinawans have fewer Japanese fastfood chain restaurants(that serve less greasy burgers) and ramen joints and have more McDonald's than mainland Japan.

> Because when I look at South Korean troop concentrations, they wisely seem to be pointed towards the nutball directly north of you.

Army is, Navy and Airforce aren't.

> I do. I teach a course on Japanese history.

Then you are surprisingly ignorant of Japanese mindset.

> Are you seriously telling me that Godzilla movies accurately reflect Japanese attitudes towards anything but kaiju?

The Godzilla movie in question was heavily criticized as being anti-American, as it is future Amercians who create King Ghidorah and send it back in time to destroy Japan in the past and try to alter the course of future history.

> there's still racial tension there. But war? I seriously frickin' doubt it.

That's why you don't understand Japanese. Japanese people are surprisingly obedient to authority; it took them 60 years to finally rebel against LDP.

So when you have a few misguided leadership leading Japan into war, the rest of population follows without asking questions, until it is too late.

> Here's what I would predict happens: Koreans land on the Tsushima islets you're referring to. Japan tells them to get the hell off.

Unlikely, since Korean invasion of Tsushima island would be triggered by Japanese assault and landing on Takeshima first. This war scenario was extensively analyzed by SDF and the conclusion was that they would not be able to defend Tsushima or take it back afterward after the loss with their current SDF structure. Koreans are expected to bargain Tsushima and its 40K Japanese civilians for the two islets.

> The Japanese people, in the meantime, would laugh and then boot out any administration who wants to go to war over a couple of tiny islands in the middle of nowhere that have no strategic value.

Of course those two islets have enormous value; the entire sea borderline would be redrawn and Japan would lose several hundreds of millions of square miles of its current EEZ to Koreans if things stay as is and acknowledge Korean holding of those islets.

Since this is Japan's only territorial dispute where passing time would not serve Japan's interest(Japan holds Senkaku claimed by China and Russia is willing to negotiate transfer of northern islands for a right price), Japanese politicians are eager to do something ASAP.

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FJV 9/8/2009 5:05:41 PM

I can see how kicking Americans out of Japan is a popular view in Japan.

But the again, I'm not particularly fond of the Japanese. In my opinion their trade policy shows exactly how they think about the US. My opinion is that what is done reflects things more accurately than what is said, no matter how polite.

Having said that. South Korean trade policy towards the US looks very similar to Japan's. This indicates to me that South Korea and the US don't see exactly eye to eye either.

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SlowMan 9/8/2009 5:14:02 PM

@ FJV

Having said that. South Korean trade policy towards the US looks very similar to Japan's.

Not really. Korea has an FTA deal pending US Congress's approval(KORUS FTA, dubbed the biggest US FTA deal since NAFTA), where as Japan hasn't even attempted to start an FTA negotiation with the US due to Japanese farmers' resistance.

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cwDeici 9/8/2009 6:26:32 PM

@ Herald12345

> How was the F-15 different from the F-22?

F-15 is not as noisy as F-22

> Which aircraft?

F-22. Kadena Municipal Assembly didn't ban USAF F-15s; only F-22s.

> Don't blame McDonalds for the shift in HOW people die.

here is the quote from the Time article you ignore.

"But over the years, the American military presence on the island has produced a profound shift in local eating habits, introducing artery-clogging quantities of beef and deep-fried snacks. Among other fast-food outlets, Okinawa boasts 44 McDonald's, including Japan's first branch, opened in 1976. Since 2000, Okinawans have been taking in as much fat as a percentage of their overall diet as Americans."

You have to understand that McDonald's major invasion of mainland Japan didn't start until 1990s, and its impact on mainland Japan wasn't as large as its impact on Okinawa. Japanese mainland has other Japanese-owned fast food chains that serve less greasy burgers than McDonald's, including stuffs like Rice Burgers and Shrimp Burgers. On the other hand, Okinawa was simply run over by McDonald's due to heavy American presence there..

> TIME is not a credible data source.

I am sure 99.99999999999% of population would take the words of TIME over yours.

Time is well known for its inaccuracies and outright lies among the intelligentsia.

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Carlos500 9/9/2009 11:19:16 AM

There is one thing I will diagree with you on and that the opinion that McD's is addictive it truely isn't have you ever try to eat that shit? I guy I knew was desparate for work and ended up working in a Macdonald factory he explained that there was one side of the factory which stunk of sewage and the burgers went in all types of colours they were then sprayed with a scent and also something that made them look the right colour, in between the spraying to make the smell nice and spraying to make them look the right colour they were 'cooked' you have got to have major mental defects to like that shit have any of you ever tried making a meal with stuff like real veg, real chesse, herbs and spices?

Really if you haven't and you like 'a good old macky D' then give it a try it doesn't take long, it won't kill you, tastes a whole lot better and you save a shit load of money!!

Thanks for the unsolicited eating advice, Carlos. The thing is, occasionally I like to have me a Big Mac with fries and a Coke. I guess that means I have major mental defects, which will surprise no one here.

I have no interest in becoming a vegetarian, thanks. God made me a predator and I will more than occasionally eat a nice big juicy steak--either here at home or out at a restaurant. But if I choose to eat at McD's, Burger King, or Taco Bell, that is my choice, and I'm mature enough to realize that it is my choice and not blame someone else for it, or claim it is "addicting."

You are to choice as i'm to an opinion. Thanks

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Herald12345 Look at Page 9 of the report I supplied and: 9/9/2009 12:17:06 PM

F-18 @ Kadena...

Well, I'm not sure what you're citing in that new linked report as that tends to indicate that the F35 is unfeasibly loud, and the F22A is about as loud - and in fact, at min power, 1000 ft AGL, the F22A is 8 db louder than the F35A (ow!)

There's no mention of the SH in the new report you've linked now - but from h**p://www.kadena.af.mil/main/welcome.asp I can see that F18's aren't based there - they may fly or refuel there but they're not part of the base force structure and therefore the residents simply don't see as many of that type as they do of the F22.

I did find an English language article about Kadena's residents here

h**p://www.japanupdate.com/?id=7408

And

h**p://www.f-22raptor.com/news_view.php?nid=258&yr=2007

So, I guess slowman finally achieved the broken clock/twice a day strike rate on this one thing - the resident of Kadena are genuinely unhappy about noise levels relating to the F22 operations in and around Kadena, probably because from all the reports you've cited, the F22A is perceptually about twice a loud as the F15's already stationed there.

The F22 is a big aircraft with a lot of thrust, it makes a lot of noise and Kadena is up in arms about it. In the first report you cited, Eglin acknowledged this and was relying on low population density in much of the increased footprint of the noise levels to minimise the effects. Citizens in the US appear to have very much similar concerns with both the F35A and the F22A and I guess it's just something that's going to get worse with increasing thrust levels on platforms.

Ian

Having taken only the time to read through a third of the PDF referenced, I'd point to table 4.2-6 which gives sound levels in DB for the various aircraft. Now, they're quoting F18 figures as a model for the F22 after some profiling but that sucker is louder than a B1B!

:faints:

There's all sorts of reasons why the report concludes that the bed down won't hurt anyone too much over the very lightly populated areas mentioned for the tests, but the F22 is shown from that table as being between 1-8 db louder than the F15.

Ow...

Japan is rather more densely populated as well.

On the other hand, Slowman also shot himself in the foot by citing all these issues with the F22 flying over Japan, after having tirelessly campaigned for the US to sell it to the Japanese.

Read 4.2-6, it's illuminating on sound levels for the aircraft types. There's one typo for the F15 figures but the rest is consistent - and seems to show the F22 is LOUD.

Ian

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sentinel28a 9/9/2009 11:59:12 PM

The city of Bozeman, Montana passed a resolution demanding Bush pull out of Iraq in 2006. Naturally, it meant exactly zilch, other than convincing the people of Bozeman that their city council needed something to do. I imagine Kadena's ban on the F-22 did about as much.

SlowMan, there are many anti-American movies made--in America. It's an anime cliche that Americans are either big dumb goofy sidekicks (usually doomed to die) or evil warmongers (also usually doomed to die). But while I do agree that popular culture can tell a lot about a people, it can also be overused as such. In my line of work, I have met many Japanese people, and I can only count one who had a problem with Americans--since she was from Hiroshima, I'll give her a pass on that. Perhaps they were only being polite, as Japanese people usually are as guests, but I still say you're letting your own hatred of Japanese blind you.

The ROK Navy and ROKAF can reorient in any direction very rapidly, so neither one of us can prove where they're "aimed" at. Again, I'm guessing that the Korean high command is a tiny bit more concerned with the lunatic up north and his million man army (along with the hundreds of artillery pieces zeroed in on Seoul) than the extremely unlikely chance of war with Japan.

But hey, if your paranoia helps you get through the day...

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SlowMan 9/10/2009 10:10:52 AM

@ herald12345

> Shrug. The town council did nothing. QED, liar.

They passed a resolution demanding the removal of F-22 from their town, and this is noted by Japanese press. Fact.

@ sentinel28a

> The city of Bozeman, Montana passed a resolution demanding Bush pull out of Iraq in 2006. Naturally, it meant exactly zilch

Yes, municipal assembly of Kedena delivered their resolution to USAF officials at Kadena base, who probably blew their nose on it afterward.

That doesn't change the fact that Kedena assembly passed the removal of F-22 because of excessive noise and they still don't like F-22.

> Perhaps they were only being polite, as Japanese people usually are as guests

Yes, it takes some getting used to before you start reading Honne.

> The ROK Navy and ROKAF can reorient in any direction very rapidly, so neither one of us can prove where they're "aimed" at.

Well, ROK Navy doesn't need supersonic anti-ship missile that they are developing launched from heavy destroyers to sink NK's rusty obsolete corvettes, so they clearly are not aimed at NK. ROKAF doesn't need supercruising LO fighter backed by AWACS to shoot down rusty NK Mig-21s that don't even seem to be taking off, so they clearly are not aimed at NK.

ROK Army and ROKMC is still directed at NK, but ROK Navy and ROKAF's primary mission is to engage JMSDF and JASDF in the widely discussed "Grand Naval Showdown" and assumes Japan as primary adversary in their their arms build up program.

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sentinel28a 9/10/2009 2:37:13 PM

SlowMan, ever hear of this really big country to the north of you that the rest of the world calls the People's Republic of China? You know, Kim Jong Weird's only ally? The same country that invaded South Korea in 1951 after coming to the rescue of Kim Il-Sung? Those supersonic missiles and AWACS might just come in handy against the Sovremennys and Su-30s of the PLAN/PLAAF, don't you think?

Or do you consider Japan a greater threat than the PRC? If the answer is yes, I advise getting mental help or putting down the local brew.

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sentinel28a 9/10/2009 2:40:18 PM

Forgot--okay, the Kadena city council hates the F-22 and doesn't want it there. The hippies who live in my state don't like Minuteman missiles, either. Both of them might as well piss in the wind for all they'll be able to influence the USAF. If the F-22 is deployed to Kadena, tough kitty toenails for the locals.

It's politics, dude. If the USAF pledged never to deploy F-22s to Kadena, the locals would find something else to bitch about. They protested having SR-71s and B-52s there too.

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