I am inclined to believe the words of Kadena residents and municipal assembly over yours.

 SAO PAULO (Dow Jones)--Brazil's Defense Ministry late Tuesday issued a statement saying it still has not chosen between French, U.S. and Swedish options for its new fighter jet force.

The Defense Ministry's release contradicts Foreign Affairs Minister Celso Amorim, who said Monday that Brazil had opted for the French Rafale jet and was in negotiations with Dassault Aviation SA (AM.FR) to buy 36 of the aircraft.

"The selection process for the FX-2 (fighter) project, conducted by air force high command, has not been completed and negotiations continue with three participants," said the statement signed by Defense Minister Nelson Jobim.

The government appears to be backtracking as, apart from Amorim's comments, the French and Brazilian government issued a joint statement Sunday that indicated Brazil was negotiating exclusively with Dassault.

Dassault is competing with Boeing Co. (BA) and Saab (SAAB-B.SK) of Sweden for the contract, which could be worth up to $10 billion.

@ Phaid

> Let's not go popping the champagne corks just yet...

What is the US gonna do, give away Super Hornet drawings and AESA radar source code, buy 12 KC-390s, and sell nuclear propulsion system to be fitted to Brazilian subs???

Offer its airplanes at less cost, offer more complete technology transfer, buy a few dozen Super Tucanos, and offer to make Embraer a source of parts for global F/A-18 sales rather than solely Brazilian ones.

 

That last would definitely be an interesting carrot.  F/A-18s are produced at a rate of 43 per year, versus 13 for Rafale, so the U.S. is much better positioned to offer those kinds of offsets than France is.

""The selection process for the FX-2 (fighter) project, conducted by air force high command, has not been completed and negotiations continue with three participants," said the statement signed by Defense Minister Nelson Jobim."

 

Seems like it would have been a good idea for the president to ask the defense ministry which plane it would have preferred before announcing the winner... this has the potential to end up like Morocco all over again.

 

 

@ Phaid

 

> Offer its airplanes at less cost

 

That doesn't matter since the biggest selection criteria according to Brazilian president was tech transfer. Super Hornet was already offered at lower price than Rafale's price, yet Rafale won.

 

> offer more complete technology transfer

 

It's still not going to match "Transfer everything" French offer. 

 

> buy a few dozen Super Tucanos

 

US doesn't buy foreign aircrafts as offset.

 

> offer to make Embraer a source of parts for global F/A-18 sales rather than solely Brazilian ones.

 

As opposed to giving Brazil the Latin America regional exclusive manufacturing rights.

 

> That last would definitely be an interesting carrot.

 

It's missing the nuclear sub, something that Brazil is determined to have.

 

>  F/A-18s are produced at a rate of 43 per year, versus 13 for Rafale, so the U.S. is much better positioned to offer those kinds of offsets than France is.

 

Super Hornet production is winding down unless Boeing wins Indian MRCA competition.While Boeing is a strong contender(at least stronger than F-16 Block 70), Boeing's win is not guaranteed. 

India will no doubt be offered the same "transfer everything" kind of deal that was offered to Brazil, and the question would be how much India would resist French offer. 

@ gf0012-aust > unbelievable.
Unbelievable here too.

more so when everyone here knows the colour if your money and has regularly seen you misquote and misunderstand things.  you're the new resident SP clown.  congratulations


> kadena pictures - read your posts, read my responses.
This is what you said;

" having personally seen f-22's rotate in and out of hawai'i on the kadena shuttle at least 4 times i'd have to say that he has no idea. - these were for  3 month soirées, so they just weren't tarmac queens unable to do their job due to local EPA rules... :)"

yes genius, read it again.  or do you struggle to comprehend the written word.  what relationship does the photo have to the fact I stated.  get over it and stop wasting everyones time in here


> JSF consortium - they're not all NATO (and that ignores your lame attempt to causal link by referencing Australia)
JSF Partners
- United Kingdom : A NATO Member
- Italy :  A NATO Member
- Netherlands :  A NATO Member
- Canada :  A NATO Member
- Turkey :  A NATO Member
- Australia : The sole non-NATO Member and I already noted.
- Norway :  A NATO Member
- Denmark :  A NATO Member

and 3 others who have no NATO affiliation at all.

> Bottom line is that Australia and UK have the highest level of access to all US tech.
Ok, so UK gets special privilege that no one else has, but what does Australia get that the likes of Japan and Korea can't??

> None of the 5 major buyers even have officers present in some of the critical US battlecomms areas.
And why would they want to be present there?

ah yes, another gem of insight.  have you ever even remotely been involved in discussions about equipment procurement, tech transfer and platform negotiations?  The answer is easy - you haven't - otherwise you'd know how this process works - especially when dealing with the US.  Transfering anything is not the same "process" between FrenchG and USG.  The french - even though they have far more liberal military procurement sales processes have had a spectacular lack of success over the last 10 years - this is despite executive interference and involvement - this is despite more than 7 years of guaranteed announcements about who was buying what in the zoo.  If anything, this is their last big chance as every other premium buyer has already committed to other aircraft types out to 2025.  India and Brasil are the last "big men" standing.

BTW, the French view is that full ToT is almost expected, so that carrot has been offered to all and sundry in the past - India and Brasil are not getting any offer unique to what has been made to Singapore, Sth Korea and a gaggle of ME/Asia Minor states.

Dude just stop. Take a deep breath and discuss rather than assert things you aren't familiar with. Nothing against you but it's getting old real fast. Lots of good sources of knowledge and interesting people to talk to here but you have to be receptive to the learning process.

Good Luck

-DA 

The discussions are apparently pretty far from over.  Some points from a piece in the Brazilian press... about an interview with Defense Minister Nelson Jobim concerning the negotiations:

 

The announcement was basically predicated on promises that Sarkozy made.  Many of the things that the deal would truly hinge on were simply based on assurances Sarkozy made which are far from assured.  These included:

 

- Technology transfer.  This is complicated by the fact that Dassault is not 100% French.  Sarkozy pledged to handle this but the Brazilians still have some doubts.

 

- Aircraft price.  Sarkozy pledged that Dassault would offer the aircraft at the same price as it does the French armed forces, possibly backed by a French government subsidy if Dassault cannot fully accommodate this.  Neither the French government nor Dassault has signed or agreed to anything in this regard.

 

- Establishing a market for Brazilian-built Rafales.  Sarkozy promised that he could bring Dassault to give Brazil exclusive marketing rights for the Rafale in South America.  This however has not been agreed to by Dassault.

 

- Cost of maintenance and number of maintenance hours per flight hour.  The Brazilians expressed doubts about this, and Sarkozy pledged that Dassault would offer a fixed maintenance cost per flight hour, with Dassault paying the difference if costs rose above that ceiling.

 

Lula's announcement was based on the agreements reached in the discussions with Sarkozy.  But this was only the first step.  After Lula made the announcement that Brazil and France were entering into an agreement, Defense Minister Jobim reminded the President that the agreements must still be legally formalized, and that the promises made by the French government must be agreed to by Dassault.  The next step will be to receive a formal offer from the French, as well as the offers of the other two bidders.  The Brazilian Air Force will then evaluate all three offers, with the possibility of further counteroffers.

 

So, basically, none of the French promises are really concrete at all, and neither Dassault, SAAB, nor Boeing have made their Best And Final Offers.  So the announcement was really premature, and we've seen what happens in the past when the French government makes promises on Dassault's behalf.