Rafale F3 leading Brazilian F-X race on the promise of extensive tech transfer over Super Hornet

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Nanheyangrouchuan 9/21/2009 4:01:11 PM

@ Das Kardinal

> Plus, if I believe this, the Raf's the most expensive option (sure, it probably includes training, spares, everything plus the kitchen sink).

No, $130 million just for the aircraft. Does not include support and weapons and these are extra. The reason Dassault is charging so much is because their bid includes an extensive tech transfer program demanded by Brazilian government, and Brazilian government has an ambition of developing their own fighter jet based on transferred tech.

Lest we forget that China and Brazil have an extensive civilian aircraft JV underway. Embraer parts and tech is already seen in China'a prototype commercial airliner.

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Bluewings12 9/21/2009 4:08:33 PM

Nan , none of the critical French technology (onboard the Rafale) will be given to Brazil .

If China is getting access to French technology , it will be when we 'll agree to make a direct deal with them .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 9/21/2009 4:54:46 PM

Kardinal :

""Well, I guess we can all start to fantasize about a future Rafale vs Su35 "incident" now :-P""

This would be a hell of a fight ... Imagine 4 Raf F3s with AWAC against 4 Su35s with AWAC ...

If the 8 fighters are lightly loaded (6 missiles each , no external fuel tanks for the Su and one central fuel tank for the Rafs) , the French AWAC will have a 50km detection advantage (which is nothing at 300km) . It only means that the Rafales will know about the Flankers first and they can take a better tactical AtoA pattern before the Su35s can .

I believe that both Rafales and Su35s will stay silent up to Optronic range (100-120km) . The Su35s might try to use their powerful radars at long range (200km) to try to get a picture on what is going on , which is counter productive .

The Rafale 's RCS with a light load seen from the front is too low to be detected at that range but Spectra will detect the Su35 's radar and the negative "painting" . If the Russian made fighters have chosen this option , they 'll have to deal with 4 Spectra EW suites earlier than planned (ooops) .

If the Fighters are reaching optronic range silently without being detected , both AWACs will provide enough datas for a decent firing solution through Link-16 and the like . Everybody 's firing salvos of EM and long range IR guided missiles , it is getting ugly , very ugly .

There , we are now in ECM/ECCM territory .

I should say that we are now in French territory . I believe that 2 Rafales will survive and one Su35 might survive . If one does survive , it could go dogfight against 2 Rafales with some good cards up its sleeve (HMS , excellent IR rockets , excellent agility and a good fuel reserve) . There again , I believe that the 2 remaining Rafales will kill it very rapidly . Unfortunatly , the Su35 may score another time :-(

The Su35 is a hell of a fighter to put down when it has a decent C4 for support . It shouldn 't be underestimated .

Cheers .

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Herald12345 Cointerattack with what? 9/21/2009 5:04:21 PM

Herald :

""You might pass that along to your buddies perveyor of falsehoods.""

I will not pass on anything , poor little man ...

Instead , I will do what I 've always done : counter strike your trolling and constant insults Herald . To be honest with you , you should have stayed on vacation (To start with , check your 8 years old spelling) .

************************

To go back on topic , I don 't think President Lula and Brazil will get anything else but the Rafale , too much is already done .

""06:01 GMT, September 15, 2009 defpro.com | A move by the Brazilian President, Inácio ?Lula? da Silva, to apparently announce his choice of the Rafale as the new fighter aircraft for the Brazilian Air Force has triggered one of the most convolute stories in recent defence procurement history. On 7 September, France and Brazil moved to further strengthen and expand their existing bilateral strategic partnership by signing the formal contracts for a series of Brazilian orders for French defence equipment, first announced in December 2008, and moving forward towards additional procurement decisions.

The broad agreement was jointly announced by French President, Nicolas Sarkozy and his Brazilian counterpart during the former?s visit to Brazil. ?This is the consolidation of a strategic partnership of two people who have much in common,? said President Lula. ?We want to think together, create together, build together and, if possible, sell together.? ?The relationship between Brazil and France is not one of supplier and client, but of partners,? stated President Sarkozy. ?We want to act together because we share the same values and a same vision on the big international goals,? he added. Beyond these aircraft deals, the two Presidents extended the bilateral defence partnership into the field of army equipment. A statement of intent has been signed at defence minister?s level under which France would support the Brazilian Army?s modernisation programmes, including digitalisation, the networking of operational units, border monitoring and surveillance, and telecommunications. As a first concrete result of this framework agreement, Brazil?s Agrale and France?s Renault Trucks Defense will cooperate for the production and sale of military transport vehicles.""

Cheers .

--------------------------------------------------------

Three more pages of your lies? Like I said, LIAR, I'll call you on your BS. as I feel the need.

Radar on Rafale still doesn't work, neither does that little bomb fuse of controversy on those Paveways as of this week, and you still don't have a clue as to what a damned droop sensor is, or how it works, you sad-sack.

Herald

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Bluewings12 9/21/2009 5:10:56 PM

I can 't believe that after all I said , herald is back with his usual trolling and insults !?

Please , it has to stop !

Cheers .

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SlowMan 9/21/2009 5:22:17 PM

Some eye popping article here < link >

"Russia starts talks to buy French warship: minister

Officials at the French Defense Ministry would not comment Saturday about the possible sale. French media have reported in recent weeks that Russia is interested in a Mistral-class carrier, and that the Russians are studying different options. Popovkin said French technologies could help Russia build its own aircraft carriers. He said Russian shipbuilders strongly oppose the purchase. Popovkin said the government has yet to make a decision on whether Russia needs to build costly aircraft carriers."

Suppose Russia buys a PA2 carrier, will it operate Su-33s or Rafales? Or will Russia try to fit PAK-FA with French radar and avionics to make it more marketable to foreign customers?

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Bluewings12 9/21/2009 5:41:09 PM

""Officials at the French Defense Ministry would not comment Saturday about the possible sale. French media have reported in recent weeks that Russia is interested in a Mistral-class carrier, and that the Russians are studying different options. Popovkin said French technologies could help Russia build its own aircraft carriers. He said Russian shipbuilders strongly oppose the purchase. Popovkin said the government has yet to make a decision on whether Russia needs to build costly aircraft carriers."""

??? . Where is that coming from ?

I know that France and Russia are working together on different military project (no big deal) but I wasn 't aware of such thing .

Myself , I can hardly believe that the Russians would ask for French help about Nukes powered Carriers . Sure , we can share our tech but the catapults we use are Americans . I 'm going to dig into this .

""Suppose Russia buys a PA2 carrier, will it operate Su-33s or Rafales? Or will Russia try to fit PAK-FA with French radar and avionics to make it more marketable to foreign customers?""

Most probably Su33s or a navalized version of the Pak-fa . Russia will never (read my lips) buy the Rafale . It is impossible .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 9/21/2009 6:25:04 PM

I was looking at the work done on the SH regarding the "discrete" airframe from the original Hornet design .

The US did a nice work on the front and took the time to work on it :

What is clearly visible is the work on the air intakes . We can still see the fan blades but to hide them totally would have required a total air intakes re-design AND first stage turbine change .

Since radars love air intakes (they can even count the blades and tell the pilot what aircraft it is) , hiding them is very important .

The Eurofighter Typhoon :

Notice the big and moveable "lips" . On the other hand , the inside "double S" is perfect and incoming radar waves can 't see the blades .

The Rafale :

The "double S" is also present and some sawtooth design is used where the radar waves will hit to disperse them .

Just some interesting and meaningful details ...

Cheers .

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sentinel28a 9/21/2009 6:42:30 PM

BW, from Wikipedia, on the SH:

The F/A-18E/F's radar cross section was reduced greatly from some aspects, mainly the front and rear.^[4]... The design of the engine inlets reduces the aircraft's frontal radar cross section. The alignment of the leading edges of the engine inlets is designed to scatter radiation to the sides. Fixed fanlike reflecting structures in the inlet tunnel divert radar energy away from the rotating fan blades.

Also from Wiki, on the Typhoon:

Although not designated a stealth fighter, measures were taken to reduce the Typhoon's RCS, especially from the frontal aspect.An example of these measures is that the Typhoon has jet inlets that conceal the front of the jet engine (a strong radar target) from radar...according to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than RAF requirements. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around one quarter of that of the Tornado it replaces.The Eurofighter is thought to have an RCS of less than one square metre in a clean configuration by author Doug Richardson, although no official value is available.This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square metres,and the American F-117of 0.025 square metres.

Your guess is as good as mine if the data is reliable (Doug Richardson has written books on stealth tech), but the point is that both the SH and the Typhoon have similar RCS-reduction features to the Rafale. I don't think any of the three can make a higher claim to "stealthiness" than the other, since none of them are stealthy. (If you're interested, Wiki's entry on the Rafale merely states "Although not a true stealth aircraft, the Rafale has reduced radar signature according to Dassault, while most of the stealth design features are classified, extensive use of composite materials and serrated patterns on the trailing edges of the wings and canards help to reduce the radar cross section." Which not only says we've got to take Dassault's word for it (though I don't see why they'd lie about it), but that the Rafale pretty much uses the same technology as the SH and Typhoon.

I used Wikipedia for two reasons: 1) it's dinnertime and I'm hungry and 2) it shows that it doesn't take much to find pertinent information on the internets.

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Bluewings12 9/21/2009 7:18:18 PM

Sentinel :

""it's dinnertime and I'm hungry""

Enjoy your meal ! (bon appetit)

""Fixed fanlike reflecting structures in the inlet tunnel divert radar energy away from the rotating fan blades""

This is an excellent trick and I knew about it but it doesn 't help the airflow . From French and Russian studies , the loss in airflow speed and compression can be as high as 20% , which is not happening on "double S" shaped inlets .

To me , it is the reason why French Rafale Pilots found the SH to be "poussif" (French slang for underpowered) at low Mach , especially under 400knots . I have the quote somewhere on my bookmarks but no need to post it as you trust me .

I can understand that you (the US) did your best with an existing airframe .

""according to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than RAF requirements. Comments from BAE Systems suggests the radar return is around one quarter of that of the Tornado it replaces.The Eurofighter is thought to have an RCS of less than one square metre in a clean configuration by author Doug Richardson""

First , a clean Tornado has a 5m square RCS from the front so a quarter of it is around 1.25m square for a clean Typhoon (Doug says less than one meter square) , which is still twice more than a clean Rafale (0.25m square = 10 times less than a M2000-5) .

We can argue on numbers but it doesn 't mind ;-)

Who wants to fly a "clean" fighter ?

What dassault said for years is true , the Rafale has the lowest RCS of all 4 and 4.5 generation fighters .

Cheers .

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