Rafale F3 leading Brazilian F-X race on the promise of extensive tech transfer over Super Hornet

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Heorot 9/18/2009 1:34:30 PM

No, that's how AMERICAN business (lack of) ethics works along with bribery and corruption.

thats a bit harsh.

in over 30 years of being associated with this game I've dealt with UK, French, Swiss, American, Japanese, Korean, Swedish, German, Israelis, Kuwaitis, Jordanians, Danish, Canadian, Indian, Ukrainian, and Finnish companies across various platforms.

at various points in time, companies from every one of those countries has been tainted with corruption and less than stellar buisness integrity.

companies are not saints and to hilight one country as a form of cultural byproduct by association is a bit over the top.

in defence of the americans, and in my experience, (and because I think that they're been unfairly slighted) - once americans break bread with you their word is as good as their bond. I've had good and bad dealings with people from a number of different countries.

Culturally speaking there are others who have a far greater tendency to see horsetrading as acceptable. The difference is that in those countries it is completely acceptable for people to act as brokers, where westerners would regard it as bribery, they regard it as business facilitation and a legitimate way of securing services. They see it as a charge for access etc....

I am old enough to remember the lies about the performance and cost of the F111 that resulted in the cancellation of the TSR2. The lies about the performance of Skybolt remains in my memory too, those lies led to the cancellation of the Blue Steel II stand-off missile.

Both projects were major causes of the demise of so many British defence companies to the point that we no longer have a major defence company (BAe is American these days).

I am convinced that those lies were the result of a policy decision to sabotage the British aircraft and missile industries.

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sentinel28a 9/18/2009 2:46:14 PM

Many of you are missing Deici's point. The reason he wants BW banned is because he turns every thread that even remotely mentions the Rafale into a "Rafale Uber Alles" thread. He will not accept any criticism of his favorite aircraft no matter how based in fact it may be. For BW, the Rafale is the Best. Plane. EVAR. and he will not accept anything to the contrary. French Strategist and Blue Apple, you're not much better. I and other posters didn't realize that by insulting the Rafale we're insulting France and all that she represents.

I personally like the Rafale and I'm on record here at SP saying so. Yes, the Rafale could use some improvements, but the same is true for the F-35, the Typhoon, the Su-27, and every other damn airplane ever built. Saying so does not make me an enemy of the French eternal. And I do try to be cordial about it. It's only BW's childish behavior and Hereot's attempt to make it sound like only American companies ever engage in slander and bribery that have pushed me over the edge. I'm sick of listening to Rafale Uber Alles, and I'm sick of people bashing my country in an idiot attempt to reinforce Rafale Uber Alles. It's stupid, it's ridiculous, it's repetitive and it's boring, and I've had it trying to play nice.

This board should exist for us to debate over the merits and flaws of every aircraft out there, whether it's the F-22 or the Fokker Eindecker. If BW is going to turn every farking thread into mental masturbation over his pet airplane, then it's going to run more people out of SP than have already left. I don't want him banned, but if he can't rein himself in, then I'm going to join Deici in writing to Sysops about it. I for one would like to have a civil conversation without worrying if fanboys are going to screw it all up.

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Bluewings12 9/18/2009 5:18:38 PM

Sentinel , I hear you loud and clear .

I fully understand your position because I feel exactly the same too . I have been here for 7 years trying to make US fanboys understand that the Dassault Rafale is not a F-teen . From my first post back in 2002 up to now , I always said that the F-22 Raptor is the best A2A platform and will still be for the incoming years .

I also acknowledged many times that the US AESA technology was more advanced and more complete than any other Country including France . I also never denied that the Rafale is missing some critical hardware like a laser pod .

Yet , some people are writing that the Rafale is not better than some 20-30 years old designs . They also say that the French PESA and AESA technology is crap , they go as far as saying that the fighter doesn 't bring bucks for the money . They also deny the excellence of French ECMs , etc ... I don 't want to quote every BS who has been said because it would take an entire website to do so .

Then , some are coming saying that the F-35 is the new best thing after slice bread when the aircraft is still a prototype with many problems . They clearly exagerate at least for now . How do you expect me to react ?

As I said before , all I am asking for is people to really check what I am saying , to read the links I post and to think by themselves instead to respond with personal insults . Why these people do not ask the US pilots who flew with and against the Rafale their opinions , ask them :

Many posters truely believe that I am a troll when they should better look at their own posts , I mean it .

90% of what I say can be verified , the rest is pure suppositions based on the actual technologies developped by my Country . I may sometimes lack the technical knowledge to debate in a good manner but am I the only one here on SP ?

I could post all my personal doc on Rafale and it wouldn 't change a thing because so many of you simply don 't want to admit facts . Well , what can I do but keep posting and re-posting what I 've always been saying ?

Yet , some are asking for me to be banned !!! Lovely behavior ...

Sentinel , I don 't put you in the same bag than people like Deici , Shooter and the like . I know knowledge when I see it and posters like Rufus , Phaid , Herald (and many others) are good posters (biaised but good) and debating with them is sometimes an eye opener . Same with you .

Recently , a new poster came in (Blue Apple) and his knowledge on the Rafale and French hardware in general is nothing short of excellent . He is from Belgium so nobody can say that he is a french fanboy .

It all comes down to bias . To me , extreme bias is trolling .

I do not troll . Even the best troll wouldn 't last 7 years here on SP and many trolls have been banned from SP . I 've been banned once because I posted real BS while being drunk and it never again happened since .

Cheers .

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Herald12345 Nut the fact is that you are a troll. 9/18/2009 5:27:32 PM

Yes I'm back from vacation, prevaricator.

Herald

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Bluewings12 9/18/2009 5:32:53 PM

Here we go , insults again ...

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 9/18/2009 6:24:01 PM

Herald :

""You might pass that along to your buddies perveyor of falsehoods.""

I will not pass on anything , poor little man ...

Instead , I will do what I 've always done : counter strike your trolling and constant insults Herald . To be honest with you , you should have stayed on vacation (To start with , check your 8 years old spelling) .

************************

To go back on topic , I don 't think President Lula and Brazil will get anything else but the Rafale , too much is already done .

""06:01 GMT, September 15, 2009 defpro.com | A move by the Brazilian President, Inácio ?Lula? da Silva, to apparently announce his choice of the Rafale as the new fighter aircraft for the Brazilian Air Force has triggered one of the most convolute stories in recent defence procurement history. On 7 September, France and Brazil moved to further strengthen and expand their existing bilateral strategic partnership by signing the formal contracts for a series of Brazilian orders for French defence equipment, first announced in December 2008, and moving forward towards additional procurement decisions.

The broad agreement was jointly announced by French President, Nicolas Sarkozy and his Brazilian counterpart during the former?s visit to Brazil. ?This is the consolidation of a strategic partnership of two people who have much in common,? said President Lula. ?We want to think together, create together, build together and, if possible, sell together.? ?The relationship between Brazil and France is not one of supplier and client, but of partners,? stated President Sarkozy. ?We want to act together because we share the same values and a same vision on the big international goals,? he added. Beyond these aircraft deals, the two Presidents extended the bilateral defence partnership into the field of army equipment. A statement of intent has been signed at defence minister?s level under which France would support the Brazilian Army?s modernisation programmes, including digitalisation, the networking of operational units, border monitoring and surveillance, and telecommunications. As a first concrete result of this framework agreement, Brazil?s Agrale and France?s Renault Trucks Defense will cooperate for the production and sale of military transport vehicles.""

Cheers .

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usajoe1 I'm back! 9/18/2009 10:52:21 PM

I'm back and I see nothing much has changed. BW is still a troll and the love child of BW the Rafale might get its first foreign customer. first of all if Brazil can get the Rafale with all the bell and whistles, e.g. AESA radar, HMS, targeting pod, it will have the best fighter in all of S. America, and one of the best 4th gen. fighter planes in the world. To me it did not matter which plane it chose because either one would of been a major upgrade from what it has today, or what any of its neighbors have. The full tech transfer, AESA radar, HMS, targeting pod, submarine deal sounds like a sweet deal. Now if France had the HMS, targeting pod, more powerful engines etc.. all in time like its competitors had it might of won a couple of more deals. That was my major problem with the bird. Broke Russia had some of the stuff available like HMS and France did not it, and this hurt the Rafale in the export market. Now I know France might not care about the more powerful radar at the time because of its modern AWACS capabilities, or care to spend the money on the tatgeting pod and more powerful engines becuase at the time it did not need it, but foreign coustomers do and that was a major mistake.

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ChakaN 9/19/2009 12:27:43 AM

Hi, first post here, i'm from Brasil and i was looking for info about Rafale, till i ended here. Your forum is very great and you guys know a lot about almost anything.

Yesterday, Gripens were offered just like in the supermarke, pay 1 take 2, but I'm telling you that the Minister of Defence will not buy that for many reasons, one of them is that +- 47% of it's tech is american. So, much more people know about how it works, etc.

This Rafale in particular was not sold to anyone yet, right? So it's secrets are kind of mystery, it was not tested in combat, but will do just fine I guess.

I don't think will use this jets ever, but they should be bought. For sure EMBRAER wanna build some packs of Rafales, but won't be selling like they did with the EMB-314.

On thing could be of top most importante and that is kicking Hugo Chaves sorry butt if he someday he get crazy and try anything stupid, they're forces got no chance even with those SUs they bought, simply because they could go into our territory only 1900 miles and there is no big cities in that range. So they would have to do something stupid on foot, that would be hilarious, simply because the brazilian soldiers can live in the jungle just eating maggots and snakes (that is the normal training for jungle), those guys would make Vietnam look like a kinder garden, they are utterly trained and have wicked sick techniches.

Back to the jets, I think Rafale should be bought and France will buy some KC-390, partenership is just the best.

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ChakaN 9/19/2009 12:29:52 AM

sorry about the wrong typing, i'm in a hurry, but looking forward to come back here...

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ArtyEngineer ChakaN 9/19/2009 1:23:30 AM

Welcome to the board, its always nice to have someone from a part of the world wher we dont get many visitors from:)

I think the sale of Rafale is a good thing for Brasil, as it seams to be tied into a mucher bigger strategic partnership between the French Government/Industry and the Brasilian Gov/Industry.

The merits of teh Rafale heve been discussed to death on here and my personal opinion is that it is a good aircraft and more than capable of wiping the floor with anything Brasil is likely to face in that area of the world.

Regards

Arty

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