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Rufus 9/17/2009 1:32:21 AM

As I said earlier... price remains a problem.

It is very very hard to sell an aircraft that still requires significant development and is barely in production for the same price as an aircraft that is fully operational and has been in large scale production for years.

Associated Press

Brazil says price holding up France jet deal

Associated Press, 09.16.09, 04:45 PM EDT

BRASILIA, Brazil -- Brazil's defense minister said Wednesday that price is still a sticking point in his country's negotiations to buy 36 Rafale jet fighters from France.

Brazil is leaning toward the Rafale from Dassault Aviation because France promises to transfer technology, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim told lawmakers. But proposals for Boeing ( BA... - news ... - people ...) Co.'s Super Hornet and Saab AB's Gripen are still alive, he said.

Jobim also confirmed the French plane is the most expensive of the three under consideration. French government officials have said a deal for the Rafales might be worth euro5 billion ($7.3 billion).

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Blue Apple 9/17/2009 7:29:06 AM

It makes no sense to try to compare capabilities an aircraft is already fully operational with to capabilities another plane might eventually receive depending how funding and R&D works out.

Using the same (lack of) logic, no country should even look at the F-35 until it's fully developped and has all its weapons integrated.

Fact is, the Rafale offered to Brazil is not the same as the ones in service with French forces.

Neither is the F-18 offered to Brazil the same as the ones in service with US forces.

PESA is most certainly a dead-end technology. It is great that France will be able to reuse part of their PESA design, but that doesn't mean that PESA is not a dead-end technology.

Your inability to understand how PESA expertise and software can be applied to AESA developments show that you simply don't understand how a modern radar work.

The facts remain. The AESA in development for the Rafale is a new antenna fitted to the Rafale's existing radar. This is not in debate.

The radar back-end is a software stack running on what is now modular electronics.

It's amazing that you're turning what is a major advantage of a modern architecture (modular processing with virtualisation to segregate software/hardware) into a flaw (thay don't change all the hardware in the back so it's the same old radar). That's on par with BW trolling.

I've explained before why I refer to Rafale as Ra "fail". [...] I've also been known to refer to the Gripen as the "Griping" because it's fanboys are just like you.

So you're basically admitting that you're trolling, hoping to provoke those you call "fanboys". At least you're open about it but that doesn't change the fact that it's the mark of a complete retard.

As for Damocles, let us return to my original statement: Has it achieved IOC with it's primary user: French Air Force?

Yes, but not on the Rafale as the priority was on others (more numerous) planes. If you fail to understand why the AdA would rather integrate a new pod on its hundreds of Mirage 2000 instead of spending time and money to provide this capability to its dozen or so Rafales, there is little we can do for you.

Thales is "probably" behind Raytheon in AESA development is it? How condescendingly generous of you.

I don't know the performance of the RBE2 AA or the APR-81/79/xx. Neither do you. That's not condescendance, it's simply being cautious.

BTW, "How Obama tried to scuttle the Rafale" (from an article in the French newspaper "Les échos")

Juicy bit from the article:

Until early summer, the game comes down to three but was really a French-Swedish duel. From mid-July, change of atmosphere: Boeing and the Obama administration started some heavy pressure. From his resort, the U.S. President called Lulla to say him that the United States will go further in terms of technology transfer, and he vouches for the Congress, whose approval is required. For its part, Boeing and its relay began distilling negative information on the Rafale, forcing Paris to react through various channels.

The battle of influence continues. Given that Boeing has strong arguments to focus Embraer, Paris agrees to buy a dozen KC390. The Air Force Brazilian continues the technical evaluation of the three planes. Whereas late August, the report is shifted to late October but Lula takes note of the broad lines. And August 31, he called his friend Nicolas ...

The key is played behind the scenes

Boeing and Washington then trying to shake the building .A senior Brazilian presents evidence clearly unfavorable to the Rafale to President Lula and his minister of defense. The Rafale hour flight would be $ 21,000, almost 3 times more expensive than the F-18, which is heavier . Brazil would not get the exclusive export to South America. Worse, it would have to fork over 70% of the contract before receiving the first plane. "We did not think it would go this far in disinformation," said a [French] negotiator. The ruse is obvious, but it works. And then, as he had promised, Obama called Lula to confirm that Congress is in

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Aussie Diggermark 2 9/17/2009 7:54:00 AM

Thales is "probably" behind Raytheon in AESA development is it? How condescendingly generous of you.

I don't know the performance of the RBE2 AA or the APR-81/79/xx. Neither do you. That's not condescendance, it's simply being cautious.

The only reaction I'm hoping for is that you and others, BW included begin to realise and publicly admit that Rafail is simply one of many 4.5Gen fighters in existence. It is not a giant leap forward, it most certainly is NOT "state of the art" in the majority of areas that count nowadays, yet, and in no way does it "dominate" all other 4.5/5 Gen fighters.

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sentinel28a 9/17/2009 2:21:59 PM

And Airbus never attempted to smear Boeing's products? I hate telling you this, BlueApple, but it's called competition. You think Boeing is going to say, "You know, our Super Hornet is inferior to the Rafale, but you should buy it anyway." I'm sure Dassault's representatives were echoing BW's assertions that the Super Hornet stinks and the Rafale rules all. If they weren't, they should be, because it's their livelihood.

Whether it's accurate or not makes no difference. It's how business works.

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sentinel28a 9/17/2009 2:22:28 PM

Whether it's accurate or not makes no difference. It's how business works.

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Heorot 9/17/2009 4:04:33 PM

Whether it's accurate or not makes no difference. It's how business works.

No, that's how AMERICAN business (lack of) ethics works along with bribery and corruption.

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Rufus 9/17/2009 4:20:54 PM

"It makes no sense to try to compare capabilities an aircraft is already fully operational with to capabilities another plane might eventually receive depending how funding and R&D works out.

Using the same (lack of) logic, no country should even look at the F-35 until it's fully developped and has all its weapons integrated.

Fact is, the Rafale offered to Brazil is not the same as the ones in service with French forces.

Neither is the F-18 offered to Brazil the same as the ones in service with US forces."

You are starting to make yourself look very very foolish.

First off, the countries that are currently planning to purchase the F-35 are the same ones that are developing it. That is perfectly normal.

Second, the F-35 is a completely different class of aircraft than is in service anywhere in the world. If you are pursuing next generation capabilities some amount of R&D should be expected.

Although neither the SH nor Rafale versions offered to Brazil are identical to what is already in service, in the US case the aircraft offered is very very close, while the Rafale requires a great deal of additional work. It makes no sense to compare what the SH has been capable of doing for years with what the Rafale is expected to be capable of in another few years if development programs go well.

"Your inability to understand how PESA expertise and software can be applied to AESA developments show that you simply don't understand how a modern radar work."

Now you are just being an idiot. I already said that there was some advantage to starting with a PESA array over a mechanically scanned array, but that doesn't change the fact that France is limited by the RBE2's back-end. It is clearly capable of operating as an AESA, but it is not an ideal solution. They badly need the range increase that the AESA will give them, but they aren't even attempting to make use of the AESA's EW, offensive jamming and communications potential.

What they are pursuing is minimal in comparison to what the US has in service. This is really not that complicated.

"The radar back-end is a software stack running on what is now modular electronics.

You think throwing out buzzwords is going to make you look better? Of course the radar is driven by software, all modern radars have been for a long time now including all modern mechanically scanned arrays. Just because something is driven by software doesn't mean that hardware is somehow irrelevant. An AESA offers a far greater amount of power and flexibility than a PESA. It also requires a far greater amount of processing and data handling capability to make use of that potential.

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gf0012-aust 9/17/2009 4:57:35 PM

No, that's how AMERICAN business (lack of) ethics works along with bribery and corruption.

thats a bit harsh.

in over 30 years of being associated with this game I've dealt with UK, French, Swiss, American, Japanese, Korean, Swedish, German, Israelis, Kuwaitis, Jordanians, Danish, Canadian, Indian, Ukrainian, and Finnish companies across various platforms.

at various points in time, companies from every one of those countries has been tainted with corruption and less than stellar buisness integrity.

companies are not saints and to hilight one country as a form of cultural byproduct by association is a bit over the top.

in defence of the americans, and in my experience, (and because I think that they're been unfairly slighted) - once americans break bread with you their word is as good as their bond. I've had good and bad dealings with people from a number of different countries.

Culturally speaking there are others who have a far greater tendency to see horsetrading as acceptable. The difference is that in those countries it is completely acceptable for people to act as brokers, where westerners would regard it as bribery, they regard it as business facilitation and a legitimate way of securing services. They see it as a charge for access etc....

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cwDeici 9/17/2009 11:03:50 PM

"Dassault will build the first 6 Rafales in France and the others will be sent in kit to the Brazilian assembly line . Not a single screw or bolt will be built in Brazil .

"

It is false Bluewing

We offer Brasil to coproduce the Rafale including on some high tech components according to number they buy, and likely full access to drawing and software except some very specific secrets.

However it is obvious that code would be modified with them in order to not give away some France specific features likley on ECM and ECCM.I don't know any nation in world which give all the same source code for export for such systems.

It is a strategic partnership which will remove US dependance of Brasil.

Likely we will make such an offer to India

I think it's cute how BW pretends to know jack about the aircraft he is in love with.

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cwDeici 9/17/2009 11:11:50 PM

Reactive , you 're a dollar short (or two) .

1) My knowledge on Rafale is better than yours and I know what I am talking about .

2) The Rafale is not stealthy but it can fool its opponents , that 's all .

1) Pretty much explains your whole attitude problem.
2) So it took you several years to admit this, despite your vaunted knowledge of the Rafale. Good for you. However I know that you're only willing to admit it now that you've found an excuse to swap it for (mental process: 'I can admit the Rafale doesn't have stealth because the EW can do it instead.)

3) You further go on to state that the Rafale EW suite will reliably fool other aircraft, even though you do not have the credentials to say so.

I believe my former posts sums it up quite nicely when another ardent Rafale-supporter corrects you about basic facts.

It is truly embaressing. I had hoped you would leave for good, but it appears you were just reloading on hp.

- Not that I am supposed to talk to you anymore, as I just now remember, the novelty wore off a long while ago. - So yeah guys, get back to ignoring him.

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