Let 's just forget about the aircraft for a while ...

 

Lula knows (like we do) that Hugo Chavez is a dangerous clown . The only position Brazil can take is to be the big boy in South-America as Brazil has always been . To archive this , Brazil needs to nail down Venezuela . Since we are in 2009 (and going) , getting top of the line Subs , top of the line fighters , top of the line technology was and still the goal .

 

To archive this , Brazil could ask the Russians for top of the line SU-35 but not for the Subs or the nuclear tech (very bad reputation) . They could ask China for top of the line (?) home made SU but they wouldn 't get anything else and the quality and cost of maintenance "could be" enormous . They could ask for the US SH but the tech transfert is not great and they can forget about Subs (they would also have to deal with the usual BS like no delivery in time , overpriced end product , etc) . Who left who could at least fullfill one or two parts of the deal ? Sweden ? Nope . The UK ? Nope . Europe ? maybe but who and after how many years ?

 

On the other hand , France can fullfill every needs in one big contract . Fighters , Subs , Technology tranfert , attack shoppers , etc . We also get (as I said before) a stronger foot on South-America and a stronger Ally .

Lula knows what he 's doing and to be honest , it is the wiser choice .

What you people also have to understand is that a powerfull Nation like the UK could not pull this because they (the British) are not relying on themselves enough anymore .

Am I talking about Independance here ;-)

 

Brazil took the better option and with Nicolas Sarkozy ' s word , they 'll get what they want for the right price .

Another thing , Brazil needs to be able to stop the USA taking their oil when time will come . To this end , Brazil needs decisive Nuclear weapons , launched from the air and from the sea . Only France could provide them such a mean .

 

What I am saying is strong , I know . Who will come after Obama ? and who after him ? The American Nation is very young and has sometimes been fighting for the strangest reasons and can sometimes turn against its stronger allies . They can also fly to defend the poor and the oppressed like a Lawfull Knight , like a Paladin . They are unpredictable especially when wounded , a bit like a Grizzly .

 

France is aware of the fact since we made your Nation for a good part and we have been looking at you since . We like you but ~even as powerfull as you are~ we keep an eye on you and can be ready to make alliances to stop you to be silly .

 

This is not anti-americanism , it is self defence .

 

Cheers .

 

 

BW, that's not the point.  I can't speak for Rufus or Herald or anyone else, but I think Brazil made a very good choice here.  I've always defended the Rafale as being a fine airplane with a lot of potential, and I think the FAB will love the airplane.  Plus it's a good partner to its Mirage 2000s.  Add to that all the tech transfer they're getting, and I think Brazil would be foolish to turn down such a package.  And we, the US, are foolish for not trying to offer something just as good, especially with Brazil offering a good counterweight to Chavez in the north.  Well, you French are lucky that you have a dynamic man like Sarkozy, while we're stuck with Obama.  (Wanna trade?)

 

Where we get into these ridiculous pissing matches is that you can't leave it at that.  Rather than just celebrating the fact that the Rafale actually has a sale, you've got to start doing your usual schtick of waving the tricolor in everyone's faces, and start claiming that your favorite aircraft is better than everything that flies.  It took a lot for you to admit that the Rafale isn't in the same class as the F-22, and now you're claiming that it can take on any of the teen fighters anytime.  I should hope it can--it supposedly is a generation ahead.  And I would love to see all this supposed evidence that the Rafale has eaten up the Super Hornet every time.  It's not good enough for people to admit that the Rafale is as good as the Typhoon or Super Hornet.  It has to be better, because your ego is wrapped up in this.  (Get a life, man!)

 

Then you make ridiculous claims that are easily disproven.  The AMRAAM's kill rate is below 10%?  I guess in French "below 10%" must translate into "has never missed."  The Mica has never been tested in combat; the AMRAAM has, and there's quite a few Iraqis and Yugoslavians who would agree with that, those that are still alive.  I'm sure the Mica is a good missile, but where you screw up is assuming that, because it's not on the Rafale, it must stink.  Which is why I posted what I did: as far as you seem to be concerned, if it isn't French, it must suck.  We're sick of hearing about it.  Probably the reason the other French posters have left is because they're afraid of being lumped in with you, Fanboy Fantastique. 

 

I admit I'm an amteur at this stuff.  I don't know much about AESAs, lobes and such.  I admit that I don't.  I'm here for a good conversation and occasionally to learn.  What I can't stand about you, BW, and posters like you, is that you won't admit that you're fanboys, or that you are, on occasion, wrong.

Well I'm glad you've at least enough sense to admit that neither the 125kg variant nor any other besides the 250kg variant actually exists at present. 

 

What you do not have enough sense to admit is that AASM is no tremendous achievement amongst precision guided weapon systems. It is neither revolutionary like the Paveway series of weapons nor a true firepower boost like the SDB.

SAGEM have followed in the footsteps of the Paveway, JDAM and Israeli SPICE guidance kits to create yet another strap-on kit and one that is neither particularly long ranged nor cheap. Want extended range? Strap on a Diamondback wingkit or an Australian designed (by Hawker De Havilland) wingkit to a JDAM and you've got a weapon with a greater standoff range than the rocket boosted AASM that is simultaneously cheaper. With JDAM or Enhanced Paveway II/IV you've got a weapon that can right now be fitted with a laser guidance kit (Laser JDAM) and CAN be fitted to Mk 82, 83, 84 and BLU-109/110/111 series bombs. The hype about AASM is simply that. Be proud of the weapon your Country has created, I'm sure it will eventually be as capable as you could require, but it's hardly "game charging" and most of it's features ARE still under development.

 

I and others call it Rafail, because that's what the program IS as a whole. Even if Brazil do finally choose it and I'm not at all convinced that will be the case, this whole incident smells of an attempt to get cheaper bids from Boeing, Dassault  AND Saab to me, France has spent billions to develop a fighter that has managed to sell a couple of hundred airframes and has managed to introduce a capability that barely if at all outmatch existing legacy fighters. Most of the features that will bring it closer to the current state of the art (AESA radar, integral EO/IR targetting capability etc) are "under development" or "not a priority".  

 

As for SPECTRA, I will just say that it is my understanding that Thales are still struggling with the system. I do find your faith in it amusing however. I challenge you to name one single capability it has that the IDECM II does not. I can name one capability SPECTRA does NOT have. A Fibre Optic Towed Decoy (FOTD). Which leaves an internal jammer as the only active jamming capability.  Go on,

Well... I certainly seem to have stirred the fanboys up...

 

I don't have time to re-correct all their latest errors but here is a quick selection...

 

"No first French electronic scan radar was build in 1970 and it was the C Band Louxor radar with PIN diods

ht*p://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=a...

Several low wave AESA radar were done in eighties and nineties."

Not in a fighter... there are completely different sets of challenges and I will leave it at that for lack of time and your obvious lack of ability to comprehend in the first place.

 

It is NOT true that the AASM can be used operationally on bomb bodies OTHER than 250kg bodies at present.

 

So you're attacking me for being inaccurate while you stated previously:

 

"AASM, yeah, this is a special weapon alright. A 125kg warhead with GPS/INS guidance only."

 

Quoting Matthew 7:

 

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

 

3 test firings are already scheduled for 2010. Unless something goes seriously wrong with the program, that puts EIS around 2013.

 

AS for the idea of wanting to employ air weapons at low altitudes, I would direct you to Tornado pilots in GW1 as to what sort of an idea that is under the current circumstances and WHY people, the FuAF on operations included, tend to drop their weapons from medium or high altitudes...

 

Actually, if you had a clue about the Tornado losses during GW1, you'd know they happened when they popped up to release their weapons. Something that would not happen with AASM.

 

Medium to high release is something you can only do if you have air superiority. The US is always in this case, for other air forces it may not be.

 

Interesting that as part of a "recovery" plan they feel the need to upgrade a pod that hasn't achieved IOC with it's primary user in it's existing state, but perhaps that's my "limited" mental faculties leading me astray...

 

Indeed, as already pointed the Damocles has been integrated on several patforms for a few years and its IR sensor will be upgraded to a newer version (hardly surprising given the rate of evolution of these technologies).

 

The fact that you still can't spell Rafale correctly is all the proof we need regarding your below average intelligence.

 

 

Again, there is nothing nefarious about the F-35 program.  Its competitors hate it because they can not hope to compete with it, but it is a great deal for its participants. 

 

In the longer term, it's not. It basically destroys every Western fighter building capability other than American ones. Yet you seem to complain about the logical end result of this policy, the massive transfer of technology to emerging players. If  the US don't want Dassault giving away technology, it should let it have its share of the fighter market. It's that simple.

 

For Brazil, the irony is that this transfer would be to EMBRAER, a company that knew one of its first success after Cessna pushed the French engineer Max Holste out of the company he had founded. He went to Brazil and designed the Bandeirante. Now EMBRAER is more and more competing with Boeing/Airbus in the civilian market and CASA/Lockmart in the military transport. History repeating itself?

 

 

In the case of the Brazilian procurement, both planes are offered with AESA, HMS, pods, whatever... That the AdA is too cheap to buy the full Rafale package does not make it a less capable plane for other customers.

 

The fact is that AESA radars are extremely challenging to build and this is France's first attempt.  The AESA being developed for the Rafale does not even attempt to do what the most modern US AESAs do.  It is an upgrade to an older back-end, not unlike the first AESA's the US put in some of its F-15s. 

Here is the thing... none of those Western states were going to be able to maintain their domestic industries anyway.  It is not the case that they can choose between the F-35 and some domestic 5th generation project.  None of these states are willing to put up the amount of money required to launch a new program.  Even if you lumped the European JSF participants together in a Eurofighter-like program the money just isn't there.  With the F-35 they can keep some of their domestic capability and get a first-rate aircraft... which is by far the best option they have available to them.

 

As for Dassault "giving away" technology... that isn't that big a concern for the US in most cases.(Provided it isn't to a threat country, which Brazil isn't.)  The US is already moving beyond 4th generation fighters and while the technology would be a big step up for Brazil, it wouldn't allow Brazil to build an aircraft that could compete with something like the F-35.  The only states the US is really concerned about are those that are working on 5th generation designs that might actually have the money, technology and political will to pull it off.  (Russia and China)

 

Hard to see?  Only if you are burying your head in the sand...

 

In the case of the Brazilian procurement, both planes are offered with AESA, HMS, pods, whatever... That the AdA is too cheap to buy the full Rafale package does not make it a less capable plane for other customers.

First , I would like to say that I enjoyed all your last posts . The insults stopped and everybody is speaking his mind .

The debate is back , great :-)

 

Sentinel , no I don 't want to trade Sarkozy for Obama ;-) Not that I dislike Obama (far from it in fact) but we need Sarkozy here in France , at least for now . Btw , I think that Obama is the best thing after slice bread for the American Nation , I would have voted for Him . If the Republicans could shut your bad mouth for a minute , He would be able to show you a more humanist way of living (I am not leftist as you know but the US system is extremist with the human person which is unnaceptable to me) . Your financial system also has to be eradicated but it is a lost cause already , I 'm not a dreamer but it should be eradicated and your Banks should be placed under the microscope of your Congress . Your Fathers (Lincoln , Roosevelt , Franklin) must be screaming bloody murder from where they are at the moment ...

 

Your "culture of Money" will be the cause of your fall if you keep following this wrong path , the entire World knows it but you don 't seem to be aware of the fact . One of these days , we 'll have to remind you the hard way . You should trust your newly elected President , not only because you elected Him but because He could be the Man who will change your destiny for the next 50 years . You need him as much as we need Sarkozy .

 

Now Sentinel (sorry about the "politics") , now you said :

 

I mistyped something , I said :

Rufus :

"""The back end is brand new for REB2 for current Rafale" (Blue Apple)