Rafale F3 leading Brazilian F-X race on the promise of extensive tech transfer over Super Hornet

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Rufus 9/14/2009 4:51:17 PM

"First , it is up to him to look down on French AESA technology . French tech on Radar have always been very good and we can design a new radar extremely well at the first try as we did many times before ."

The fact is that AESA radars are extremely challenging to build and this is France's first attempt. The AESA being developed for the Rafale does not even attempt to do what the most modern US AESAs do. It is an upgrade to an older back-end, not unlike the first AESA's the US put in some of its F-15s.

"The AESA RBE2 has nothing to be ashamed of compare to the APG-79 . It might have a slightly lower range (30km less) but its fonctions and integration is as good ."

The AESA RBE-2 is nothing to be ashamed of but it absolutely does not include the "fonctions" of the APG-79. (and its range is a heck of a lot more than "slightly" less.) The APG-79 is a larger, more sophisticated, and far more powerful radar than that which the Rafale may eventually receive in another few years.

"Unlike what Rufus is saying , the MMICs are of the same generation and I might even say that the inert material (non-conductive) of the European MMICs is better , I let you look into it by yourselves ."

LOL, thanks truck driver. As usual your opinion on matters of technology is completely useless, but nonetheless amusing. France has had continual problems obtaining suitable MMICs since the beginning of its development effort when it was forced to use US MMICs to construct its first functioning prototypes. While France can now obtain acceptable MMICs these are still not comparable to those going into the latest US radars.

To top it all off, the APG-79 is operational TODAY while the Rafale is as always waiting for an upcoming feature...

""Not only that, but the SH's AESA is capable of EW and communications functions that the Rafale's AESA will not have.""

Completly untrue as I speak . Some work has been done on the F-22/F-35 's radars but that ' s it . The technology can probably be implemented on the -79 but nothing has been done .

As usual bluewings your ignorance is simply embarrassing. What compels you to try to talk about things you clearly know nothing about is a mystery to me...

h*tp://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw022607p2.xml

The newest version of the Boeing Super Hornet, equipped with an advanced, Raytheon-built APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, can spot small targets--even stealthy cruise missiles--at ranges great enough to allow an effective defense. Navy officials are loath to talk with any detail about the metrics of electronic attacks and admit only to "extremely significant tactical ranges" for EA effects against air-to-air and surface-to-air radars, Gaddis says. However, other Pentagon and aerospace industry officials say that while air-to-air missiles are struggling to reach the 60-100-mi.-range mark, some sophisticated electronic attack effects can reach well beyond that.

"That's at least 100 mi.," says a long-time Pentagon radar specialist. "There are different forms of electronic attack, and they include putting false targets or altered ranges, speeds and positions of real targets into the enemy's radars. Those are effects that require less power than jamming and therefore are effective at longer ranges."

An industry official with insight into AESA development says that the ability to affect a foe is limited by the enemy radar's range because the signal has to be captured, manipulated and returned. Therefore, long-range ground-based radars and even AWACS radars could be electronica

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Rufus 9/14/2009 4:54:26 PM

"I'm being childish, I admit, but I'm dealing with a childish person here..."

A good summary ... I don't know why I waste my time with him.

If France put a biplane back into production he would be on here singing its praises and making up lies about it as well...

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french stratege 9/14/2009 6:49:06 PM

Rufus

The fact is that AESA radars are extremely challenging to build and this is France's first attempt.

No first French electronic scan radar was build in 1970 and it was the C Band Louxor radar with PIN diods

ht*p://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=a...

Several low wave AESA radar were done in eighties and nineties.

X band radar for fighters needs low cost affordable module and we do not achieve a proper module price before 2007

However we use AESA antenna for jammer like in Spectra for years (they need less modules with less power output)

The AESA being developed for the Rafale does not even attempt to do what the most modern US AESAs do. It is an upgrade to an older back-end, not unlike the first AESA's the US put in some of its F-15s.

As you don't know anything in radars, you don't understand that digital signal treatment and antenna management are separate physically.

The back end is brand new for REB2 for current Rafale

"The AESA RBE2 has nothing to be ashamed of compare to the APG-79 . It might have a slightly lower range (30km less) but its fonctions and integration is as good ."

To be proven.RBE 2 is given for 150 km for a sqm

Yes since ours were not ready for the same generation

Me I'm not a truck driver but closer to an MIT Phd

While France can now obtain acceptable MMICs these are still not comparable to those going into the latest US radars.

Hum....It is probably why Thales was contacted to be second source for US radar manufacturers since US have production probleme for quantity for F35

To top it all off, the APG-79 is operational TODAY while the Rafale is as always waiting for an upcoming feature...

True since US have a 3 to 4 years lead.

However once we fill the gap, US enjoy no big advanatge until the next generation.

Etc.

Rufus, you are at the same level than BW so you should not be too arrogant.

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Bluewings12 9/14/2009 6:54:41 PM

Gentlemen , many French posters left SP because of your very attitude : you are biaised to the highest imaginable degree .

Myself , I stay here because your posts are just a pity and it is so easy to make fun of it .

Sentinel , your post was indeed childish and doesn 't reflect at all my beliefs .

Rufus , your post is the usual internet US fan bla-bla . I post numbers , studies and pictures , you , you talk .

Fortunatly , most good posters here on SP don 't get involved because they have better things to do than bash what many wordwide airforce professionals see as the most efficient 4.5 generation fighter-striker .

There are other and far more profesional sites around than SP and some should check what they say . The most critical site about the Rafale is probably AirDefense.net (a French site) and is also the best site to check if you want to know everyhting about the Rafale . There , I can tell you that the jet is going through surgery and autopsy every day . The difference with Strategypage lies in the fact that some very clever and impartial people , as well as foreigners , talk about facts and facts only .

Here , less than 5% of you know the Rafale enough to be able to talk about it intelligently . Rufus is not in these 5% , not even close (Phaid is hundred times better than him) .

I would like these internet US fan to explain to me (I am sure they can 't) why the Rafale always trashed the SH in every evaluation the two aicrafts participated in . If they cannot even trust the foreign pilots and foreign air forces who flew the Rafale , they will certainly not trust me but I couldn 't care less . The SH has been dumpted first in almost every competion it did participate during the technical evaluation the past 8 years while the Rafale won them all and finished second overall for political reasons in 2 big markets and 1st in the latest one .

What these internet US fans should understand is as it stands , a Rafale F3 is seen by most if not all AirForces as the better and more capable platform when compared to any F-teen . When they will get that in their little mice brain , they will have made a step forward . Until then , I 'm going to keep playing the cat , chasing them around .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 9/14/2009 7:03:52 PM

FS :

""Rufus, you are at the same level than BW so you should not be too arrogant.""

C ' est vrai que t ' es un sacré connard toi . Je t 'avais plus ou moins pardonné les conneries que tu m 'a sortis il y a 2 ans mais la , tu me gonfles .

Cheers .

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french stratege 9/14/2009 7:04:33 PM

Moreover you don't understand that Rafale jammer is a class above those of F18E and much more costly BTW if you see price given for Rafale and F18E (according to GAO and US documents).

Rafale (like B1B) use 3D directional signature management unless F18E which has a classical omnidirectional jammer (internal or decoy)

It means that Rafale LO signature is 3D numerised according to incoming directions, necessary output and jamming waveform needed are tailored real time according to direction and angular RCS.

RWR is similar in sophistication to those of F22.

The jammer uses just necessary output according to real reflectivity to jamm directionaly.

It is a path well known as an alternative to pure passive stealth.

Here a document you should read if you wish to learn something

ht*p://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/rep...

But only Rafale has currently such a jammer as a fighter(remember it weight 10 time more on B1B due to older electronic).

According to US reports, US fighters like F15 or F16 have enormous difficulties to detect a B1B especially at low altitude.

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Phaid 9/14/2009 7:10:31 PM

OK well there's another thread gone to the toilet. Thanks for nothing, sysops.

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Bluewings12 9/14/2009 7:23:40 PM

There is no problem Phaid , we are still discussing why the Rafale seems to be chosen by Brazil .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 9/14/2009 8:04:50 PM

Rufus :

""The SH is fully operational with a whole range of air-to-ground munitions while the Rafale is currently capable of employing only a handful of guided munitions""

I spent a bit of time searching how the USA are using the SH 's weapon capability and what I found is very , very similar to how France is using the M2000 B/Ds or the Rafale . If you take away the fact to lase its own target for a LGB release , the SH has no advantage in precision strike over the Rafale and even some disadvantage in stand-off . The French Rafale pilots would like to gets unguided rockets for a quicker and cheaper "punch" during CAS missions (LGBs and AASMs are far more expensive especially when fired against a Taliban "car park") but overall the Rafale has a big edge over the SH in surviving its mission . We now for a long time (The Swiss and the Brazilians only confirmed it) that it is the reason behind the Rafale doing great during Ops and evals , it is also because our Pilots are good :-)

Why a fighter is coming first at a technical evaluation ? Why does it fare better than others ?

If it was about the ability to drop a LGB on its own for the cheap , a Mig-21 would do . If it was for ... (fill the dots) X or Y fighter would do . So , why the Rafale constantly and systematicaly won the technical evaluation against various latest F-teens ???

You tell me or ... I tell you ?

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 9/14/2009 8:24:00 PM

Few hints :

- 5th generation avionics

- best overall airframe

- 5th generation integration (real plug&play)

- impressive weapons and armory

- ease and cost of maintenance

- excellent range

- low RCS

- ease for upgrades

That 's for the aircraft in itself . ' need any other hints on geopolitics ?

Cheers .

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