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Subject: Rafale F3 leading Brazilian F-X race on the promise of extensive tech transfer over Super Hornet
SlowMan    8/4/2009 3:43:03 PM
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Contenders

Rafale F3 : $130 million per plane + extensive tech transfer
Super Hornet : $90 million per plane, weapons and support + will buy some parts from Brazilian suppliers.
Gripen NG : $60 million per plane. Will build half of NGs in Brazil.

Rafale F3 is favored over Super Hornet because of the promise of an extensive tech transfer.
 
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Heorot       9/17/2009 4:04:33 PM
Whether it's accurate or not makes no difference.  It's how business works.
 
No, that's how AMERICAN business (lack of) ethics works along with bribery and corruption.
 
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Rufus       9/17/2009 4:20:54 PM
"It makes no sense to try to compare capabilities an aircraft is already fully operational with to capabilities another plane might eventually receive depending how funding and R&D works out. 
 
Using the same (lack of) logic, no country should even look at the F-35 until it's fully developped and has all its weapons integrated.
 
Fact is, the Rafale offered to Brazil is not the same as the ones in service with French forces.
 
Neither is the F-18 offered to Brazil the same as the ones in service with US forces."
 
You are starting to make yourself look very very foolish. 
 
First off, the countries that are currently planning to purchase the F-35 are the same ones that are developing it.   That is perfectly normal. 
 
Second, the F-35 is a completely different class of aircraft than is in service anywhere in the world.  If you are pursuing next generation capabilities some amount of R&D should be expected.
 
Although neither the SH nor Rafale versions offered to Brazil are identical to what is already in service, in the US case the aircraft offered is very very close, while the Rafale requires a great deal of additional work.  It makes no sense to compare what the SH has been capable of doing for years with what the Rafale is expected to be capable of in another few years if development programs go well.
 
"Your inability to understand how PESA expertise and software can be applied to AESA developments show that you simply don't understand how a modern radar work."
 
Now you are just being an idiot.  I already said that there was some advantage to starting with a PESA array over a mechanically scanned array, but that doesn't change the fact that France is limited by the RBE2's back-end.  It is clearly capable of operating as an AESA, but it is not an ideal solution.  They badly need the range increase that the AESA will give them, but they aren't even attempting to make use of the AESA's EW, offensive jamming and communications potential.  
 
What they are pursuing is minimal in comparison to what the US has in service.  This is really not that complicated.
 
"The radar back-end is a software stack running on what is now modular electronics. 
 
It's amazing that you're turning what is a major advantage of a modern architecture (modular processing with virtualisation to segregate software/hardware) into a flaw (thay don't change all the hardware in the back so it's the same old radar). That's on par with BW trolling."
 
You think throwing out buzzwords is going to make you look better?  Of course the radar is driven by software, all modern radars have been for a long time now including all modern mechanically scanned arrays.  Just because something is driven by software doesn't mean that hardware is somehow irrelevant.  An AESA offers a far greater amount of power and flexibility than a PESA.  It also requires a far greater amount of processing and data handling capability to make use of that potential.
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       9/17/2009 4:57:35 PM

No, that's how AMERICAN business (lack of) ethics works along with bribery and corruption. 

thats a bit harsh.

in over 30 years of being associated with this game I've dealt with UK, French, Swiss, American, Japanese, Korean, Swedish, German, Israelis, Kuwaitis, Jordanians,  Danish, Canadian, Indian, Ukrainian, and Finnish companies across various platforms.

at various points in time, companies from every one of those countries has been tainted with corruption and less than stellar buisness integrity.

companies are not saints and to hilight one country as a form of cultural byproduct by association is a bit over the top.  

in defence of the americans, and in my experience, (and because I think that they're been unfairly slighted) - once americans break bread with you their word is as good as their bond. I've had good and bad dealings with people from a number of different countries. 

Culturally speaking there are others who have a far greater tendency to see horsetrading as acceptable.  The difference is that in those countries it is completely acceptable for people to act as brokers, where westerners would regard it as bribery, they regard it as business facilitation and a legitimate way of securing services.  They see it as a charge for access etc....

 
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cwDeici       9/17/2009 11:03:50 PM

"Dassault will build the first 6 Rafales in France and the others will be sent in kit to the Brazilian assembly line . Not a single screw or bolt will be built in Brazil .

"

It is false Bluewing

We offer Brasil to coproduce the Rafale including on some high tech components according to number they buy, and likely full access to drawing and software except some very specific secrets.

However it is obvious that code would be modified with them in order to not give away some France specific features likley on ECM and ECCM.I don't know any nation in world which give all the same source code for export for such systems.

It is a strategic partnership which will remove US dependance of Brasil.

Likely we will make such an offer to India


I think it's cute how BW pretends to know jack about the aircraft he is in love with.
 
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cwDeici       9/17/2009 11:11:50 PM

Reactive , you 're a dollar short (or two) .

1) My knowledge on Rafale is better than yours and I know what I am talking about .

2) The Rafale is not stealthy but it can fool its opponents , that 's all .
1) Pretty much explains your whole attitude problem.
2) So it took you several years to admit this, despite your vaunted knowledge of the Rafale. Good for you. However I know that you're only willing to admit it now that you've found an excuse to swap it for (mental process: 'I can admit the Rafale doesn't have stealth because the EW can do it instead.)
 
3) You further go on to state that the Rafale EW suite will reliably fool other aircraft, even though you do not have the credentials to say so.
 
I believe my former posts sums it up quite nicely when another ardent Rafale-supporter corrects you about basic facts.
 
It is truly embaressing. I had hoped you would leave for good, but it appears you were just reloading on hp.
 
- Not that I am supposed to talk to you anymore, as I just now remember, the novelty wore off a long while ago. - So yeah guys, get back to ignoring him.
 
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cwDeici       9/17/2009 11:16:09 PM
These are facts about the tech transfer of the Rafale and other technologies, regardless I remember clearly how you didn't know that a laser-pointer had been slapped on (you were saying that it would be), and after the other poster informed you, you merrily went on to frame it as now 'integrated with the Rafale airframe'.
 
It's painfully obvious you're an amateur pretending to be involved with those nifty jetfighters, and your constant dirty talk about girlfriends and countries indicates you may have a severe inferiority complex about both as well.
Sadly though, your fanatic obsession has not converted into any limited layman's knowledge of the subjects, or even basic common sense.
 
... so yeah, correction made... back to ignoring posters that detract from every discussion (for the good of SP)... 
 
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cwDeici       9/17/2009 11:20:18 PM

I think I can sum up this thread:

 

Me: "I think the Rafale's a great airplane, and it'll become greater once the bugs are worked out, which will likely be soon.  Good for Brazil."

 

Bluewings: "WHAT? The Rafale is great NOW!  It's the greatest airplane ever because it is FRENCH! It can tear apart everything that flies, turn invisible, and fly up its own asshole because it...it CAN!"

 

Assorted Other Posters: "The Rafale's okay, but it's not as combat proven or as good as the Super Hornet."

 

Bluewings: "AMERICAN PROPAGANDA! The Super Hornet SUCKS!  It's not FRENCH!"

 

Rufus: "Here's a list, well supported by evidence, why the Super Hornet right now is a better aircraft than the Rafale."

 

Bluewings: "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING AMERICAN PROPAGANDA!" *begins singing the Marseillaise*

 

I'm being childish, I admit, but I'm dealing with a childish person here...


You're not being childish, but I doubt you're right about the Rafale being a great airplane. It's a vastly overpriced fighter-bomber (bomb truck) without the necessary assortments required to bat in the upgraded 4'th Generation League.
 
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cwDeici       9/17/2009 11:29:04 PM


"First , it is up to him to look down on French AESA technology . French tech on Radar have always been very good and we can design a new radar extremely well at the first try as we did many times before ."




 



The fact is that AESA radars are extremely challenging to build and this is France's first attempt.  The AESA being developed for the Rafale does not even attempt to do what the most modern US AESAs do.  It is an upgrade to an older back-end, not unlike the first AESA's the US put in some of its F-15s. 




 



"The AESA RBE2 has nothing to be ashamed of compare to the APG-79 . It might have a slightly lower range (30km less) but its fonctions and integration is as good ."




 

The AESA RBE-2 is nothing to be ashamed of  but it absolutely does not include the "fonctions" of the APG-79.  (and its range is a heck of a lot more than "slightly" less.)  The APG-79 is a larger, more sophisticated, and far more powerful radar than that which the Rafale may eventually receive in another few years.




 

"Unlike what Rufus is saying , the MMICs are of the same generation and I might even say that the inert material (non-conductive) of the European MMICs is better , I let you look into it by yourselves ."












LOL, thanks truck driver.  As usual your opinion on matters of technology is completely useless, but nonetheless amusing.  France has had continual problems obtaining suitable MMICs since the beginning of its development effort when it was forced to use US MMICs to construct its first functioning prototypes. While France can now obtain acceptable MMICs these are still not comparable to those going into the latest US radars.

 

To top it all off, the APG-79 is operational TODAY while the Rafale is as always waiting for an upcoming feature...


 





 




""Not only that, but the SH's AESA is capable of EW and communications functions that the Rafale's AESA will not have.""

 

Completly untrue as I speak . Some work has been done on the F-22/F-35 's radars but that ' s it . The technology can probably be implemented on the -79 but nothing has been done .



 

As usual bluewings your ignorance is simply embarrassing.  What compels you to try to talk about things you clearly know nothing about is a mystery to me...


 

h*tp://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw022607p2.xml





 



The newest version of the Boeing Super Hornet, equipped with an advanced, Raytheon-built APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, can spot small targets--even stealthy cruise missiles--at ranges great enough to allow an effective defense. Navy officials are loath to talk with any detail about the metrics of electronic attacks and admit only to "extremely significant tactical ranges" for EA effects against air-to-air and surface-to-air radars, Gaddis says. However, other Pentagon and aerospace industry officials say that while air-to-air missiles are struggling to reach the 60-100-mi.-range mark, some sophisticated electronic attack effects can reach well beyond that.


"That's at least 100 mi.," says a long-time Pentagon radar specialist. "There are different forms of electronic attack, and they include putting false targets or altered ranges, speeds and positions of real targets into the enemy's radars. Those are effects that require less power than jamming and therefore are effective at longer ranges."


An industry official with insight into AESA development says that the ability to affect a foe is limited by the enemy radar's range because the signal has to be captured, manipulated and returned. Therefore, long-range ground-based radars and even AWACS radars could be electronically attacked at ranges well over 100 mi. For air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, the techniques would be the same but the effective ranges would be shorter.


The U.S. Navy's first AESA-equipped squadron has been developing combat procedures as the unit works up to its first deployment. VFA-213, flying all two-seat F/A-18F models, already has been through training cycles at NAS Fallon, Calif.'s "Strike U."


The Navy's concept of operations is to use combinations of EA-18 Growler electronic attack and the advanced Block 2 F/A-18E/F strike aircraft to offer self-protection, almost instantaneous location and identification of targets, and a variety of forms of electronic and conventional missile attack. That entity will be part of the advanced air wing in the Carrier Strike Group of 2024.



 






Soooo.... you think the technology can "probably be implemented" but that "nothing has been done" huh?


 

I guess that is why people don't usually ask truck drivers for their opinion on RADARs then isn't it?  The above article is from early 2007.... this is old news at this point and even a fanboy should know better than you seem to.

 



 




""The SH has a newer, more advanced, and more capable self protection jammer and EW system than the Rafale including a towed decoy.""

 

That is completly untrue . When the SH will be capable to jam two or more different sources independently of each others (range , frequencies , precision) at the same time with onboard AESA jammers , you 'll let me know .


The towed decoys are the reason why the newest Mica has been made , there is a clever turn around trick .



 

LOL,   pooor fanboy... did I hurt your feelings?  Does it upset you to read that maybe your dream plane isn't the best at everything?  Spectra is a decent EW system, but it is neither the newest nor the most capable system available and its lack of crucial features such as a towed decoy are major drawbacks. 

 

The SH has a bag of tricks the Rafale just doesn't:  Incredibly high powered jamming with its AESA allowing it to degrade radars at extreme ranges, a capability previously limited only to standoff jamming platforms... a state-of-the-art EW system capable of handling the software driven LPI signals that Spectra can not... and a towed decoy allowing it to attack missile seekers without the risk of being targeted by a HOJ mode...


 


 




""The SH is fully operational with a longer ranged and more advanced BVR missile""

 

Usual US propaganda who can 't stand scrutiny . One has to look at the claimed stuff and at the real operational kill ratio of the AMRAAM (less than 10%) . Enough said . Then , don 't come to me talking about the end game ...



 

Hilarious bluewings.... really.  The AMRAAM has been employed by multiple countries in multiple engagements, with excellent results.  Is it any wonder it is by far the best selling missile of its type in the world today?

 

I would suggest we compare it with the MICA but as usual your favorite (ie French) missile has only achieved a handful of sales to mostly obscure forces and has no operational record to speak of.


 







""The SH is fully operational with a helmet mounted sight, which combined with the AIM-9x and its already exceptional maneuverability gives it a large advantage over the Rafale in WVR combat.""

 

Totally untrue again . The truth is that the SH will be dead before it enters REAL visual contact (it doesn 't know how to jam the Mica EM and the Mica IR which both have a longer range than any AIM-9X . Then , the French Rafale pilots themselves said that they could defeat HMS equipped fighters with the right tactics and their superior manoevrability ...



 

Ah yes, we have already had the truck driver's theories on radars and electronic warfare systems, why not add in his theories on air combat?  

 

The fact is that in long range engagements the Rafale is out ranged and out smarted by the SH's superior missiles, radars and electronic warfare equipment. 

 

In close range engagements... if one took place...the SH retains the advantage with its helmet mounted sight. 

 

The whole world knows this by now bluewings, you are the only one left that can't bring yourself to admit it because your favorite (ie French) plane does not have this key feature. F-16, F-15, F-18, SH, Eurofighter, Mig-29, Su-27, Su-30, Gripen, etc etc etc  All of these aircraft have helmet mounted sights.  The Rafale doesn't... and it isn't because the Rafale has magic powers as you seem to believe.  The truth is simpler, France just doesn't have the money to develop one...


 

 




""The SH is fully operational with a whole range of air-to-ground munitions while the Rafale is currently capable of employing only a handful of guided munitions, only a couple of which it can employ without another aircraft on hand to locate and designate the target for it.""

 

This is again grossly exagerated to try to make a point . As it stands (without the Damoclès pod) , the Rafale F3 can do more or less whatever you ask it to do , Deep strike , CAS , CAPs , SEAD , mini-AWAC , buddy-buddy refueling , naval strike , interception , ELINT .



 

LMAO


 

"Deep strike" - Provided you don't want to use anything other than a 250kg rocket boosted GPS guided bomb or a cruise missile.


 

"CAS"Provided you don't want to use anything other than a 250kg rocket boosted GPS guided bomb or a cruise missile.

 


"SEAD" - Provided you don't want to use anything other than a 250kg rocket boosted GPS guided bomb or a cruise missile.

 

"Mini-AWACs"- WTF? LOL  The Rafale's inadequate  radar is one of its largest weaknesses yet you think it is cut out to be a "mini-AWACs!?"


 

etc etc

 

The fact is that the Rafale has a single guided bomb in a single size available today, an overpriced one at that.   The SH has a huge range of weapons in all classes and sizes with all available seeker types.  The SH can do anything needed today.  Once again the Rafale is still waiting for features the SH had years ago.


 

 



"Then , if we try to compare their flying characteristics , the Rafale wins hands down in all regimes and attitudes ."

 

Of course not, once again if you had any actual knowledge you would know that this is a silly thing to even attempt to assert and even if it were true, it wouldn't matter... with helmet mounted sights and HOBs missiles you are never going to be able to gain a meaningful advantage over another 4th generation fighter with marginally improved maneuverability. (That applies to any comparison of 4.5 generation fighters with the exception of something like a Mig-31...)


 







 
Well, BW is undoubtedly a sad, lonely loser who's great compensating passion in life is fighting for a fighter aircraft of his nation that he's not involved in personally (but he likes to pretend he is). I think it would benefit everyone involved to ignore him so he can go and find a life.
 
As for French Stratege, well he's just a standard French fanboy with some knowledge, blinded by nationalism. It's amazing he'd compare your well-made post to the excreta of BW.
 
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cwDeici       9/18/2009 12:04:31 AM
 
Gentlemen , many French posters left SP because of your very attitude : you are biaised to the highest imaginable degree .

- This is possible, it happens in the real world. However it is more likely that it is simply you who are biased. 

Myself , I stay here because your posts are just a pity and it is so easy to make fun of it.
 
- It's the other way around.
Rufus , your post is the usual internet US fan bla-bla . I post numbers , studies and pictures , you , you talk .

- What you post is a human tragedy of broken dreams.


Fortunatly , most good posters here on SP don 't get involved because they have better things to do than bash what many wordwide airforce professionals see as the most efficient 4.5 generation fighter-striker .


- Name them. Worldwide airforce professionals think of the Rafale as a decent airframe, but a complete laggard on an errant research bent.
- And you KNOW posters here on SP don't get involved with you because we all think you're an idiot, and no longer feel sorry for you.
 

There are other and far more profesional sites around than SP and some should check what they say . The most critical site about the Rafale is probably AirDefense.net (a French site) and is also the best site to check if you want to know everyhting about the Rafale . There , I can tell you that the jet is going through surgery and autopsy every day . The difference with Strategypage lies in the fact that some very clever and impartial people , as well as foreigners , talk about facts and facts only .
- So you are subconciously aware that people here disagree with you? Thus the choice to undermine SP.
I know of plenty mistakes that SP has made. But in regards to air defense it has been quite decent, though its newest posts haven't been in tune with its deprecating view of the Rafale in the Airplane statistics.
- We know you hate the US for being better than you, thus the 'US fanboyism' shtick (like they even need to brag), even though you're the only fanboy in this thread. But giving an air defense site is a good idea, shticking it up as 'better than SP' though reeks of 'they agree with me so they're better'. And it'd be valuable too in regards to the Rafale, even though it's French, if we knew most French posters aren't arrogant and biased.
You see... *sigh*. I know your type. I've seen your arrogant Gaullic sterotype across the net. Are you seriously unwilling to admit that you're not concerned with facts per se, but with facts agreeing with your views? I've seen plenty of people post facts that are verifiable and correct unlike yours (when they can even be found in some twisted archive form), in a completely neutral tone until you lambast them for not agreeing with you.
We're all hoping you'll go back to that defense forum and leave us alone. It's one of the very few things, if not the only thing in your life, so if you're going to defend it for the rest of your life then have fun. Won't it be a tragic surprise when you discover after life or at your deathbed that the one meaningless thing you clung to was untrue?
Here , less than 5% of you know the Rafale enough to be able to talk about it intelligently . Rufus is not in these 5% , not even close (Phaid is hundred times better than him) .
- By which you mean he has a more optimistic view of the Rafale (not backed up by actual data, but rather by a more optimistic interpretation of its upgrade schedule (the same as the one Rufus uses)). And where do you get that figure, a hundred times better? Phaid is good, but he doesn't quote as much relevant source materials as Rufus. Your only argument is that you agree with his more optimistic statements, thus proving that you are biased. 


I would like these internet US fan to explain to me (I am sure they can 't) why the Rafale always trashed the SH in every evaluation the two aicrafts participated in . If they cannot even trust the foreign pilots and foreign air forces who flew the Rafale , they will certainly not trust me but I couldn 't care less . The SH has been dumpted first in almost every competion it did participate during the technical evaluation the past 8 years while the Rafale won them all and finished second overall for political reasons in 2 big markets and 1st in the latest one .


- Your only half decent argument. The results of these tests have been refuted by worthwhile posters such as your nemesis Herald (and I'm sure later in this thread). From what I remember the SH did not display its full capabilities, while the Rafale was disqualified for lacking lots of vital characteristics. Also the Rafale is all right when it comes to just maneuvering, and as mentioned the French do not mind displaying their technology for everyone to see as it's part of the marketing strategy. It's interesting how opinions suddenly matter to you when they might be in your favor (though illusory), yet you instantly switch to 'political considerations' WHEN THE SAME BLOODY TEST you cites as YOUR EVIDENCE goes against you. I suppose even your evidence can only be impartial when it agrees with you.

What these internet US fans should understand is as it stands , a Rafale F3 is seen by most if not all AirForces as the better and more capable platform when compared to any F-teen . When they will get that in their little mice brain , they will have made a step forward . Until then , I 'm going to keep playing the cat , chasing them around .


 

Cheers .

 
You're not chasing anyone around. You're not cheering anyone. You just said the Rafale is better than the F-22. Probably a Freudian slip, as I haven't seen even you make such a statement before. The only one with a mouse's brain here is you. Learn to write proper English and not write whatever you 'feel' is right subconciously or consciously.
 
Face it Bluewings, I am going to tell you the truth now for the umpteenth time.
 
Deep inside you know you are a loser with very few things of value in your life, that must be why you came here so often to talk with people about things you don't have in your life, which you try to coopt by national association.
You know the tinge inside your heart when you read these things isn't just rage, but the knowledge that if you let go of something you spent so much time building up - and admit it was for nothing - you might lose the will to live.
 
That's why no matter what, you will defend your beliefs.
 
Which would normally be fine. Noone would begrudge you squeaking by emotionally in your life if you did it somewhere you don't bother everyone else.
People like you who need to be right so badly about their hobbies should find an area where noone will disagree with them.
 
No, you don't want to believe this.
 
Then why lie to us about being part of the French aviation industry? You can't be so lost you actually believe you are, are you? Look around your room, what do you see? Flash drives with documents you've gone over that you need to talk about tomorrow? Or models and snacks?
Realizing this might endanger you for the short term, but it would be beneficial in the long term if you survive.
 
Regardless I am going to file to the moderators to have you banned. This is not your optimized personal playground to bulk up your self esteem, in fact it is not your playground at all. And we are NOT your mates - despite how many times you write Cheers.
 
So leave. Because I am filing now. I am not good at ignoring trainwrecks, and you have long since exhausted the pity of all posters here.
 
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cwDeici       9/18/2009 12:14:25 AM
OK, I've sent in a petition to have Bluewings removed from the forum for aggravated trolling (flames, unsubstantiated statements and outright falsities reducing the quality of the board for subsequent years). Regardless of whether you find him entertaining or not I encourage you to a great degree to join this measure.
 
I was actually starting to see reasonable conversations about the Rafale and other topics on French matters until he reappeared.
 
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cwDeici       9/18/2009 12:25:31 AM
If what you want is to feel better and to think that anyone who disagrees with you is biased then stick to your nationalistic board where dissenters get mobbed no doubt on the basis of their opinion rather than their conduct of argument. The sad thing here is that you will spend the rest of your life in a delusion, but you were on that path anyway when you retreated from SP for a time to nurse your wounded feelings and arguments.
 
As to whether there are entire forums of retards on the internet? Yes. There are plenty, including people who like you will post evidence that the Earth is flat.
 
Whether it is your forum or SP (with all its flaws, but I still like her) which is in error, this can only be assessed by what is actually true.
 
I'm sure your board constantly throws around unsubstantiated statements that are beloved for their nature, unlike this board where the academic environment is cutthroat, even among those of the SAME FACTION. See? You run things by faction in your mind, that is one of the many reasons you fail.
 
We will boot you out. I will make sure of it. Leave us alone or be thrown out, because as you've finally seem to have understood we all think you are les miserables (despite your delusional comment that many of us are 'good posters' who agree... you know that anyone who disagrees about the Rafale is a bad poster and also that only French Stratege and a few others agree).
 
We know you are a sad loser, a truck driver or something sitting in front of your computer and trolling a forum that you're attracted to due to competitive arguments. But you don't cut it, and your behavior is awful, so we're chucking you out. 
 
You can play kiss-ass with your national comrades and the odd foreigner on your board that agrees the Rafale is a great plane. I am sure there are no dissenting voices there... only 'fabulous' 'great' and 'supreme'.
 
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sentinel28a       9/18/2009 12:48:27 AM

Whether it's accurate or not makes no difference.  It's how business works.

 

No, that's how AMERICAN business (lack of) ethics works along with bribery and corruption.



Right.  We Americans invented bribery and corruption, along with a lack of business ethics.  Everything was just fine until those assholes we refer to as the Founding Fathers decided to declare independence from the sweet, loving, caring genius of George III.  And in the process we bankrupted France! BRILLANT! 
 
I bet we invented Black Plague and caused the fall of the Roman Empire, too.  I wish I was European, so I could blame everything on someone else.
 
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cwDeici       9/18/2009 1:14:00 AM




Whether it's accurate or not makes no difference.  It's how business works.



 



No, that's how AMERICAN business (lack of) ethics works along with bribery and corruption.









Right.  We Americans invented bribery and corruption, along with a lack of business ethics.  Everything was just fine until those assholes we refer to as the Founding Fathers decided to declare independence from the sweet, loving, caring genius of George III.  And in the process we bankrupted France! BRILLANT! 

 

I bet we invented Black Plague and caused the fall of the Roman Empire, too.  I wish I was European, so I could blame everything on someone else.



Hey the Muslims are worse. And you're pretty much dealing with a Frenchman here, they're twice as bad.
 
I'm half Norwegian and it's true, Europe has entered its decadent phase.
 
 
PS. Bluewings has been derailings threads for years too.
 
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cwDeici       9/18/2009 1:15:06 AM
Norway isn't so bad though (comparatively). But yeah France is bad, even for Europe.
 
America has about 50-60 percent European-minded people though. ugh
 
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Das Kardinal       9/18/2009 2:08:33 AM
Wow, cwDeici sure loves to use personal and ad hominem attacks, doesn't he ? And as usual he spouts a dozen separates messages clogging an entire forum page to do it. 
My, my, look at a mirror. Maybe BW's a truck driver. So what. Are you implying that driving a truck is something one should be ashamed of ? Or that one shouldn't post if his job isn't directly involved in the related industry/service ? Why, that's going to leave the boards pretty much deserted won't it ? 

And you, cwDeici, you're the most childish-sounding poster here. You want BW banned because you can't stand him talking about his preferred plane (which you seem to hate with a passion, BTW) ? Gee. I guess everyone not wholeheartedly agreeing with you should be banned too ? 

BW and FS can be exhasperating sometimes, even to me (I'm not hiding the fact that I like the Rafale, but when I see thread names like "Rafale and F22, let's compare !" I know it's going to be ugly). I take everthing they write with a huge grain of salt. But sometimes, sometimes they write things that make sense, or post relevant information, just like others. 

You, on the other hand, are not contributing anything else than your express anti-French bias (as you did again in your latest post) and unsubstantiated drivel against the Rafale. Other critics like Herald or Rufus at least have a modicum of argumentation. You don't. Your posts can be summarized as "Me hate France, me hate Rafale, me hate anyone rench or arguing in favor of Rafale, me want them banned !" 

Fact is, you're behaving like a spoiled teenager doing an Internet Tough Guy routine.
Grow up, get a life.
 
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