Rafale F3 leading Brazilian F-X race on the promise of extensive tech transfer over Super Hornet

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Bluewings12 9/11/2009 3:33:41 PM

SlowMan :

""Yes, Korean Airforce was basically looking for a bomb truck, and Strike Eagle was the bomb truck, not Rafale.""

That 's a wee bit incorrect . First , the Koreans were looking for more than a bomb truck and this is the reason why the Typhoon lasted so long in the competition (Typhoon was no where in A2G but good in A2A) .

Secondly , the Rafale as a bomb truck has few tricks the Eagle hasn 't . From the Korean 's point of view , they wanted something able to go deep inside North-Korea and in a relative safety while being capable to defend itself . In both tasks , the Rafale proved itself the better platform for the task , mainly due to its passive onboard sensors and ELINT capability and superior ECMs integration . Then , the AASM has no equivalent in the US inventory and gives the aircraft a decisive edge in the way to deliver precise munition within a wide range of missions , altitude , attitude and "on the fly" against multiple targets . The Rafale also took the advantage over the F-15E during the A2A evaluation with 4 kills versus 1 in 2 encounters . It has to be noted that the Typhoon won the A2A final match against the Rafale with 2 kills versus 1 .

I still cannot explain how it happened :-( The only "excuse" I can find is that we did not have the Spectra F3 like we have now , the RBE2 radar was also different ...

""It's not the US pressure. Taiwan basically banned French weapons from their military after qustionable actions on French part, namely Mirage 2000 delivered with A2G feature deleted and an example subsequently provided to Chinese PLA for study and Lafayette-class frigate that was delivered with critical subsystems missing.""

There , I give up , you are right . I did not think about first but you are correct . Nothing more to add , I admit defeat .

That was President Chirac time and we did few bad financial deals during his watch , it is all I have to say .

""> it is only the best 4.5 gen operational Fighter (Me).

That title belongs to Typhoon, not Rafale (You)""

Are you drunk ??? The actual Raf F3 is a dream machine for every Typhoon user ! I mean , for God sake , check the capabilities of the two aircrafts right now and in the incoming 5 years ! The Typhoon is at least 3 to 5 years behind (and I am kind) , then the airframe cannot be compared , the only marginal edge the Typhoon enjoys is the acceleration at high Mach and the better sustained turn rate over Mach 1.4 , that 's it . I mean that 's it .

""> Rafale is an excellent bomb truck (among other things) with >10 tonness of external payload(BlueApple)

No it isn't. You cannot compare bomb hauling capability of a 36 ton aircraft with a 24 ton aircraft at take off. The missile profile called for 4 x 2,000 JDAMs, 4 missiles(2 AMRAAM + 2 AIM-9X), targeting and EW pods, and external fuel tanks to fly 1,000 km, release bombs, 1 minute of afterburner burn, and then come back. Strike Eagle could do this, Rafale couldn't.(SlowMan)""

Rafale 's ability to survive in deep strike penetration is better than F-15E and this is what counts , you want the aircraft to complete its mission and come back alive . As I said earlier , South-Koreans acknowledged the superiority of the Rafale .

Cheers .

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sentinel28a 9/11/2009 4:05:26 PM

Sweet Mother Gaia. Bluewings, you're "Rafale is Stealthy!" argument has been defeated so many times that it's not even funny anymore.

So let's see if I follow your logic: the South Koreans worshiped the Rafale, but then went out and bought the F-15E instead. According to you, this is because the US threatened...well, something...against the ROK. That's strange, because the ROK bought Russian Helixes to replace their SH-2s, C.295s to replace their C-123s, and developed their own T-50 trainer to replace the T-37 and T-38. According to your logic, the US should have screamed bloody murder. Yet we didn't.

We have words in the English language for your last post, BW. They're called "sour grapes" and "sore loser."

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Bluewings12 9/11/2009 4:05:26 PM

To go back on the Brazilian deal , only the US money advantage and the very good SH had a chance against the combo France-Rafale .

The Gripen NG lost before the competition started and Saab should have been a bit more aware of the fact , I think .

No one would choose a single engine jet when you have to fly over thousands square miles of jungle forests .

It 's too risky .

As much as I like the Gripen and praise some of its qualities (which are often underestimated) , it cannot fit the Brazilian AF .

By the way , a M2000-5 is still waxing a Gripen in a cannon dogfight :-)

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 9/11/2009 4:37:53 PM

Sentinel , obviously many things from my last post are disturbing you . With all due respect (I mean it) allow me to explain myself and try to correct some of your assertions .

""Sweet Mother Gaia. Bluewings, you're "Rafale is Stealthy!" argument has been defeated so many times that it's not even funny anymore.""

??? Where in my last posts did I talk about a "stealthy" Rafale ??? Please , don 't put words in my mouth to make your case , thank you .

To try to satisfy you , the Rafale is a better deep strike penetrator than the F-15E . Not because it is "stealthy" (while it still enjoys a RCS 10 time lower when both aircrafts are fully loaded) , but because its onboard sensors and the tactical situation displayed to the pilot is in a different league . It is in the F-22/F-35 league as far as we know it .

360 deg EM and ECM bubble , AESA ECMs , Optronics , etc ...

The scale is wrong but it shows how the passive sensors help the aircraft to make its way inside enemy territory unoticed .

The F-15E does NOT have this advantage and it needs a pod to archive half of what a clean Rafale can do . This is why I keep talking about better integration , better design and better harware .

The South-Koreans indeed acknoledged the difference .

""According to your logic, the US should have screamed bloody murder. Yet we didn't.""

There is only two ways to affirm your superiority nowadays : air superiority and nuclear subs .

Since the US proposed none of it , France did get the deal . As simple as that .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 9/11/2009 7:00:28 PM

To be perfectly honest , it is not a surprise to us that Brazil went for the French deal .

Besides the fact that our package was the best offer , Brazil sees itself as the most powerfull South-American Nation in direct competition with Argentina and the mad Hugo Chavez of Venezuela . Since they don 't want to rely on the US for obvious military and geopolitics reasons (possible embargo on some weapons and technology as well as the incoming US pressure on futur oil fields) , they went with France and it is the right thing to do as far as I am concerned .

If you put yourself in their shoes , you would do the same . This is all about Freedom and self defense .

Brazil gets 5 excellent Subs (one nuke powered) to counter the Argentina 's Navy , they get the Rafale to secure their airspace and strike more or less whoever they want and they learn directly from the French . Air superiority and deadly Subs plus the tech transfert . Everything for a about $18 billions , who would refuse such offer and friendship ?

Cheers .

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doggtag 9/12/2009 8:17:44 AM

No one would choose a single engine jet when you have to fly over thousands square miles of jungle forests .

It 's too risky .

Ummm, OK. Which Mirage models again did Brazil previously buy that had two engines?

And that compact little AMX they co-developed with Italy? One engine.

The only two-engine tactical fighter I see Brazil having is the F-5, unless we go back decades earlier and perhaps they had some of those Vantours, Vixens, or other early twin jets...

Brazil doesn't seem to have had much cause for concern in buying single-engine fighters in the past.

And besides, I thought today's technology jet engines are supposed to be marvels of reliability?

So why is it super critical to have two engines instead of one?

And flying over thousands of square miles of ocean is OK,though?

For the amount of area many nations will expect their F-35s to cover,

notice that it seems to be selling pretty well (maybe) on the premise of having a single engine as well.

(I'll mention also the single-engine Harrier...)

F-16s sold by the thousands on a single engine design, and consider how much open water, open desert,

forbidding arctic terrain, and other hostile environments they've overflown all these years,

yet there's very little fear, terror, and cause for concern there over the fact that it has only the one engine.

Why would flying over jungle be any worse? Fear of bird strikes and engine flame-out by ingestion?

There are modern turbine designs that have been tested by rather gore-ish means to prove they can withstand the occasional swallowing of feathered friends (although I wouldn't want to throw a 20-odd pound goose or egret in there just to prove it...chicken carcasses seem to be the "meal" of choice, and my guess is they seldom weigh over 10 pounds).

And any engine designed to fly under those harsh extended conditions of rainstorms, blizzards, and even sleet/small hail ingestion aren't going to go to pieces just because one accidentally chokes on a parrot for a few seconds.

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Das Kardinal 9/12/2009 3:01:12 PM

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sentinel28a 9/12/2009 4:08:08 PM

Rafale is a better penetrator than the F-15E. Okay.

Let's see...the current Rafale needs 30-year old designs to help it lase targets, and the infamous ECM suite hasn't gotten all the bugs worked out. And yet you French posters are having multiple orgasms over a 36-plane sale to Brazil when the F-15E serves with...let's see...five air forces and counting.

But I'm sure that's all due to American blackmail or something...

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Bluewings12 9/12/2009 6:05:39 PM

Doggtag :

""Brazil doesn't seem to have had much cause for concern in buying single-engine fighters in the past.""

True but apparently things are changing . Who could blame them ?

""So why is it super critical to have two engines instead of one?""

It is not "super critical" , it is safer . Single engine Mirages or the single engine F-16 very rarely had engine problems but it did happened . Twin engines is not a must , far from it , but it is safer . Anyway , I don 't think it is the main reason why the Brazilians are not seeing the Gripen as a possible winner . Doggtag , since you are making good points , I had a good thinking ...

I can only see three reasons why Brazil should not buy the Saab offer :

-1) Sweden cannot match the French offer (main reason)

-2) The Gripen (NG) will not bring the same capabilities than a Rafale F3

-3) The "navalized" version of the Gripen does not exist

When you think about it , it make sense . I wouldn 't be surprised if Brazil ask for a Brazil-France joint program on a Carrier within the next 10 years . Rafale M would be the obvious choice (price , maintenance , pilot training , etc)

Sentinel :

""Let's see...the current Rafale needs 30-year old designs to help it lase targets"

Oh please , the Damoclès pod will be available this year and the Rafale does NOT need it because the AASM can do everything a LGB can do and more . Sure the AASM is more expensive than a LGB and it is why the Damoclès pod is needed to cut the "target 's price" down . Btw , the AASM is doing extremely well over A-Stan . If it is all you have to "bash" the Rafale , you ' re a dollar short Sentinel .

""and the infamous ECM suite hasn't gotten all the bugs worked out""

Bugs ??? Spectra went through 3 updates since it exists and the latest version incorporate some very interesting features from the "Carbone" program . The improvement seems to be focusing on data transfert speed , precision in frequency jumping , better databank management and ELINT fonctions/transmissions . I still believe Spectra to be the best ECM/ECCM fully integrated suite flying .

""And yet you French posters are having multiple orgasms over a 36-plane sale to Brazil when the F-15E serves with...let's see...five air forces and counting.""

This sale is very important to France . The deal we are making with Brazil will probably be one of the most important thing during N. Sarkozy 's watch . Our already strong ties with Brazil are strenghten and the deal is securing far more things than people can imagine for the next 20 years . Both Nations are (as I said) on a win-win situation .

Brazil is going to get a very close support and a boost in its engineering (military and civilian) , top of the line Subs , top of the line attack choppers , top of the line fighters , ability to sale their home made stuff under license , access to futur French programs regarding upgrades . All of this for $18 billions .

France is getting trust and improved frienship from a futur very powerfull Nation holding tons of oil they can sell to us and it is opening another opportunity for Europe (yes it does) to set a new mark in between South-America and North-America .

Nicolas Sarkozy is the best and the most straight talking guy you can dream of to lead business and new alliances , nothing is hidden and all cards are on the table . He can tell you "fuc* off" or "I like you" with the same ease . He promissed to Brazil to fullfill his words and He will .

Which is probably the case for Sweden but certainly not the case with the USA .

Americans are far too much business and political pressure orientated ~as well as corrupted~ to be trusted on a deal regarding the Air and Sea dominance . As simple as that .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 9/12/2009 6:36:02 PM

By the way , have you noticed these details :

The M2000-5 is making 93 knots (!) , its pulling 3.5 gs (!) and it has a perfect lock on the target with its cannon .

My Lord , what a dogfighter !

Well , the Rafale wax a M2000 ...

Cheers .

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