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Subject: South Korea abandons consideration of stealth fighter development
Rufus    7/27/2009 12:25:43 PM
h*tp://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/07/113_49176.html
 
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SlowMan       11/14/2009 12:17:55 AM
@ Hamilcar

> That was using the Hawk trainer development program as a baseline estimate and it was an economic feasibility study for an export market by university economics wonks to the Korean parliament with not one of them with experience with aeronautics program management at all!
 
Actually the whole report is a BS intended to comply with the law that says that any project that requires government funding to generate economic benefits equal to or greater than the money spent. It's like that $9,999 car ad on your sunday newspaper. When you actually get to the dealership, that one's already sold and car salesman has another loaded model for you at $15,000.

Once they gain funding approval, they throw the report into trash cann and proceed with ROKAF spec, which is closer to 2007 model.
 
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Hamilcar       11/14/2009 12:41:43 AM
I don't think you really get it, yet, and I think I surprised you a bit, too.
 
I buy nothing of what you sell here as to either your understanding of the article or your interpretation of what I read.  . 

It would be as if the Carlton School of Economics was to report to Congress that the US needs to make F-20 Tigersharks  to export to Israel  so we could keep 7000 people employed, and they based their estimate on the F-5 Freedom Fighter. 
 
No knowledge of need, no knowledge of tech base, no knowledge of market, no knowledge of aviation at all!
 
You see where this goes?
 
 
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SlowMan       11/14/2009 9:51:58 AM
@ Hamilcar
 
> I think I surprised you a bit, too.
 
That's what you think.
 
> It would be as if the Carlton School of Economics was to report to Congress that the US needs to make F-20 Tigersharks  to export to Israel  so we could keep 7000 people employed, and they based their estimate on the F-5 Freedom Fighter.
 
And that's exactly what's happening here.  
 
> No knowledge of need, no knowledge of tech base, no knowledge of market, no knowledge of aviation at all!
 
None of those is necessary; all they need to do is come up with a report that shows postive return for the investment. And this is why this one stresses operating and maintenance cost savings; $9 billion for a fleet of 120.
 
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Hamilcar       11/14/2009 2:42:41 PM
 
ROTFLMAO.
 
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SlowMan       11/18/2009 12:04:43 PM
KFX scandal developing in Korea.
 
KFX 2007 feasibility report is ruled as void by the Parliament because it was subcontracted to Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Saab, and EADS and KDI cut & pasted their findings into one report instead of doing their own work. Of course the result would turn out to be "unfeasible" since these companies would recomment their products over KFX in their findings, and the KDI report sited $12 billion development cost quoted by Lockheed Martin in the report as the reason for dismissal.(Saab quotoed $6 billion, EADS $10 billion, and Lockheed $12 billion. Boeing's quotes unknown) The Parliament defense committee is furious that the Korean DoD wasted  2 years and and money on second study(aka KFX 2009 which looks like modified Super Hornet), which is now pointless since the original F-35+ configuration appears to be feasible afterall.
 
This "KFX 2009" doesn't even appear to be well researched unlike "KFX 2007", since this was just a hypothetical configuration devised by Kunkook University to find ways to cut cost and no serious research was done on it, such as RCS simulation, wind tunnel testing, and CATIA modeling study and had nothing to do with ADD, the national weapons development lab which came up with KFX 2007 model. However, cost saving measures from KFX 2009 maybe applied on KFX 2007 model, such as airframe size reduction, substitution of foreign stealth tech with indigenous stealth tech, indigenous AESA radar and avionics(original KFX 2007 model would have depended these on foreign sources), so this 2 year delay allows utilization of increasingly maturing indigenous military technology that would have been foreign sourced if they went ahead back in 2007.
 
The only thing certain about KFX is that its engine supplier would be GE, both KFX 2007 and KFX 2009 study assumed GE as engine supplier.
 
At the moment, KFX program is back on track and the final decision by the President next month.
 
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seethetruth       11/19/2009 7:18:26 AM
I bet you already had read this.

KDI did NOT copy & paste reports written by LM, Boeing, EADS & Saab. What KDI asked to six OEMs, which include KAI and Korean Air, were their own proposals for a fighter development program - things like "For your fighter development program, we can help you do this and that at what cost, etc."


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&o1656;&*7928;&o1008; &o1060;&*4172; &o0500;&*5768;&*4256; &o0948;&o1032; &o1656;&*7928;&o1060;&o0632;&*5796;&*5716;&*4172; &*7928;&o1228;&o1077;&*5768;&*5796;. &*4536;&*7000;&*9436; &*8708;&o3664;&*7484; &o4616;&*5716; &*5208;&*6972;&*6308;&o1060; &*9373;&*4220;&*4256;&o0836;.

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seethetruth       11/19/2009 7:22:09 AM
 
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Hamilcar    I don't translate Korean at all.   11/20/2009 1:23:19 AM
But do I read that as subcontractor technology aid feasibility requests by the KDI for a national program?
 
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gf0012-aust       11/20/2009 4:36:26 AM

I bet you already had read this.

KDI did NOT copy & paste reports written by LM, Boeing, EADS & Saab. What KDI asked to six OEMs, which include KAI and Korean Air, were their own proposals for a fighter development program - things like "For your fighter development program, we can help you do this and that at what cost, etc."

Do you understand the difference between an RFI and an RFT in military procurement?  KDI sought an RFI.

this is getting ridiculous.  how about understanding procurement concepts before trotting out stuff like this as proof of life evidence.
It's the same principle used by the Indian AF.  Seek an RFI to get as much info as possible without making it a binding committment to issue a tender.

The RFI can then precede the RFT.  (assuming that the country issues an RFT in the first place) The RFT precedes the Tender submission.  The Tender is then evaluated and the article selected.  at that point its 5-10 years before it goes IOC depending on the complexity and conditions of production and contract.
 
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SlowMan       11/20/2009 9:58:24 AM
@ Hamilcar

> But do I read that as subcontractor technology aid feasibility requests by the KDI for a national program?

These fighter venders were given the minimum-spec requirement draft and were asked how much it would cost to develop a brand new fighter at that spec. Lockheed Martin is said to have quoted $12 billion, EADS $10 billion(Modified Typhoon was $6 billion).

KDI study is considered flawed because it cut ans pasted Lockheed Martin's procurement cost analysis comparison and didn't account for cost savings from 30-year maintenance and service cycle, as locally sourced product is always much cheaper to service than imported product, more so with F-35 generation. The 2009 study puts the value of this savings at $9 billion for a fleet of 120(The current requirement is 250~260, so the savings can reach $20 billion) and makes it the most compelling reason for an indigenous fighter, not the procurement cost.

@ gf0012-aust

> The RFI can then precede the RFT.  (assuming that the country issues an RFT in the first place) The RFT precedes the Tender submission.  The Tender is then evaluated and the article selected.  at that point its 5-10 years before it goes IOC depending on the complexity and conditions of production and contract.

I think they will go straight for tender by late 2010 or 2011, as they don't have time(2021 introductory date goal) and they know what they want to build.
 
Both KFX and indigenous attack helicopter are announced as a "go" today. Defense Minister announced the decision to "go" and the Parliament approved funding for next year. There is general consensus that they could not afford to delay on these two anymore, as KFX must be introduced into service by 2021. The Korean DoD will tie F-X III with KFX now that KFX is a go.
 
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