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Subject: South Korea abandons consideration of stealth fighter development
Rufus    7/27/2009 12:25:43 PM
h*tp://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/07/113_49176.html
 
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Rufus       9/1/2009 2:23:15 PM
I could go point by point again... by why bother?  There are so many things wrong there is hardly even anywhere to start.
 
This is clearly going to be another case where you will stubbornly insist black is white forever, no matter how ridiculous you make yourself look by doing so. 

 
 
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SlowMan       9/1/2009 2:32:21 PM
@ Rufus
 
> This is clearly going to be another case where you will stubbornly insist black is white forever, no matter how ridiculous you make yourself look by doing so.
 
I will give you an example.
 
What is the color of Sun to you? Yellow.
What is the color of Sun to Asians? Red.
 
How could you perceive different colors when looking at the same thing? But that's exactly what we have. 

 
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Rufus       9/1/2009 3:00:32 PM
Once again kid, this is not about cultural differences.
 
This is about your having only the vaguest grasp of the concepts in play and zero willingness/ability to learn.
 
You read what other fanboys say on messageboards and then rush over here to announce what your "sources" have just told you.
 
Even when you post articles you frequently completely misunderstand/misquote or lie about them.  This hasn't happened just once or twice.
 

 

 
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SlowMan       9/1/2009 3:07:42 PM
@ Rufus
 
> Once again kid, this is not about cultural differences.
 
Yes it is, you don't understand how their system works.
 

 
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FJV       9/1/2009 3:32:11 PM
How they run projects like this is that they first build a rough version on CATIA and run simulations on it to gather data and cost estimates. Then they seek out specific technical partners for what they do not have. How else would you know what you need external engineering help on unless you build it first and run simulations on it, at least virtually on CATIA?

This is a great engineering practice for engineers too, since engineers work faster once they go for the real thing because they have done it before.  This is why Korean engineers could roll out prototypes in just 3~4 years after the full development begins.

 
The CATIA (mathematical) models will have to be based on and be valdidated live by tests be accurate.
 
For instance the way a car drives can be modelled quite accurately on a computer, because the mathematical models were based and validated on a huge amount of data gained by real life tests/making actual cars.
 
In the same way you need conduct a lot of life tests to check the results of your computer models against reality and make adjustments to your computer model when there's a difference for simulating a jet fighter.
 
Once you have the accurate mathematical models (after a lot of testing), you can do what you describe, if you stay within the mathematical model's limitations.
 
My hunch is that the South Koreans are not that advanced yet.
 
PS
The color of the sun is yellow during the day and red during sunset. (scattering of light)
 


 
 
 
 
 
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Herald12345    Ascerbic reply.   9/1/2009 4:38:25 PM



How they run projects like this is that they first build a rough version on CATIA and run simulations on it to gather data and cost estimates. Then they seek out specific technical partners for what they do not have. How else would you know what you need external engineering help on unless you build it first and run simulations on it, at least virtually on CATIA?



This is a great engineering practice for engineers too, since engineers work faster once they go for the real thing because they have done it before.  This is why Korean engineers could roll out prototypes in just 3~4 years after the full development begins.





 

The CATIA (mathematical) models will have to be based on and be valdidated live by tests be accurate.

 

For instance the way a car drives can be modelled quite accurately on a computer, because the mathematical models were based and validated on a huge amount of data gained by real life tests/making actual cars.

 

In the same way you need conduct a lot of life tests to check the results of your computer models against reality and make adjustments to your computer model when there's a difference for simulating a jet fighter.


 

Once you have the accurate mathematical models (after a lot of testing), you can do what you describe, if you stay within the mathematical model's limitations.


 

My hunch is that the South Koreans are not that advanced yet.

 

PS


The color of the sun is yellow during the day and red during sunset. (scattering of light)

 







 

 

 

 

FJV I agree with about 85% with what you say. I think the mnodeling is a little more complex than that but you've the gist of it.


For that FOOL, though.
 
 
Yellow is yellow. The languages may have different words for it, but the last time I looked there was just ONE spectrum and one valid scientific definition for yellow:
 
 
 

 
 
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SlowMan       9/2/2009 9:48:05 AM
Rufus doesn't seem to understand how this process of "redevelopment" works, so I will make an example with a familiar commercial product.



This is a Daewoo Lacetti, your run of the mill $10,000 Korean econo-sedan



This is a Daewoo Lacetti with modified drivetrain and underbody structure to support a heavy Korean battery pack that GM CEO drove to the US Senate to beg for bailout last year.



This is Chevrolet Volt, a $40,000 40 mile range electric car that is supposed to represent the future of GM.

So what did you see here? GM took a Lacetti, modified it with electric drive and battery pack, then turned it into a Volt. Is Chevrolet Volt based on Daewoo Lacetti? Yes. Is Volt a Lacetti? Nope.

The same thing is exactly what is happening with KFX. They will take a Super Hornet, heavily modify it, and turn it into a KFX to achieve a specific performance goal.
 
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Herald12345    Reply to a fool II.   9/2/2009 10:01:46 AM
Do you know of the GM Delta chassis plan?
 
Do you know the names Pinanfirina, and Giorgetto Giugiaro?

I didn't think so.
 
The only RoK engineering input into the Lacetti is the nameplate. 
 
Even the battery tech is CANADIAN.
 
The Chevy CRUZE which is the original template f0or that Korean knockoff was a joint GM/Suzuki venture.circa 2000.
 
Herald
 
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SlowMan       9/2/2009 11:12:42 AM
@ Herald12345

> Do you know of the GM Delta chassis plan?

Lacetti and Volt are based on Delta II chassis developed by Daewoo, not Delta I chassis by Opel. They aren't even in same class. Delta I of Opel was a B/C-segment compact chassis, while much larger Delta-II of Daewoo is C-segment(Near D) chassis.

This is why Daewoo's Delta-II vehicle(Lacetti in 2008) came out two years before Opel's first Delta-II vehicle(new Astra in 2010), because the platform tech transfer for Delta-II is Korea->Germany and Korea->US, not Germany->Korea.

GM's platform responsibility break down.

GM US : Truck and Cadillac
Daewoo : A/B(Gamma-II) and C(Delta-II) segment
Opel : D(Epsilon) segment and powertrain
Holden : E segment RWD

> Do you know the names Pinanfirina, and Giorgetto Giugiaro?

Lacetti is not styled by Italian design houses unlike older Daewoos. Lacetti is a Daewoo internal design.

> The only RoK engineering input into the Lacetti is the nameplate.

I have to wonder why Lacetti came out two years before Opel's version, and full three years before GM's version then. It's good to know that Germans are kind and benevolent enough to engineer other company's car two years ahead of their own.

> Even the battery tech is CANADIAN.

I didn't know LG was a Canadian company. Thanks for teaching me something new everyday.

> The Chevy CRUZE which is the original template f0or that Korean knockoff was a joint GM/Suzuki venture.circa 2000.
 
The next Daewoo-based Cruze has nothing to do with older Suzuki-based Cruze mechanical wise.
 
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SlowMan       9/2/2009 12:40:54 PM
@ Herald12345

> That is a direct derivative of the Delta 1

Yes, Daewoo took over the engineering responsibility of Delta platforms from Opel, and converted Delta 1 into Delta 2. It was Daewoo engineers that handled that conversion, and this is why you see first wave of Delta 2 vehicles are Daewoos, and this is why the first Volt demonstrator wore Daewoo grill.

> Exactly backwards. Who owns OPEL?  At least for now GM.

Opel engineers are Germans, not Americans, and Opel engineering takes place in Germany.

>  (That is actually Subaru and GM Canada that dopes the design for the chassis classes.)

I get a strong sense that you and I belong to different parallel universe. In our universe, Subaru is a subsidiary of Toyota and engineers Toyota AE86 remake and Toyota mini-cars. I don't know how things are like in your universe.

> GM designe all of its powertrains in the US.

Not in our universe.

> A lot of the Bodywork now comes out of ITALY.

Again, not in our universe. None of GM models are styled in Italy in our universe.

> Source data including commercial.

You may have failed to notice that that was the older previous-gen Lacetti in your youtube video, unrelated to the current one on sale since last year.

> Compact Power.LTD which developed the tech

Well, I see CPI's web site covered with LG logo all over. Furthermore, this is what CPI states < link >

"LG Chem, our parent company, is already a leading manufacturer of lithium ion battery cells world wide. Production capacity is expanding into HEV and PHEV markets. CPI?s focus is on integrating LG Chem?s battery cells into world class energy storage solutions for our customers. Backed by the resources of the LG Group, CPI has both the means and technical capabilities required to bring advanced lithium ion battery packs to the automotive market."
 
This is what really CPI is, the US sales rep of LG Chem. 

> Just like Thales claiming that their American software subsidiaries are French? 

But you said Opel tech was American because it was American owned.

> And that too is one of your lies. SUBARU ring a bell?

Yes, Subaru the subsidiary of Toyota Corporation. At least in our universe. I don't know how things are over there. Maybe the Soviets are still around and China is still dirt-eater instead of being USA's No. 1 creditor in your universe.
 
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