South Korea abandons consideration of stealth fighter development

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Rufus 7/27/2009 12:31:49 PM

The South Korean military is having second thoughts about introducing so-called fifth-generation stealth fighters due to technical and budgetary problems.

Last week, the Weapon Systems Concept Development and Application Research Center at Konkuk University in Seoul submitted its interim report on the feasibility of the KF-X indigenous fighter development project to the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA).

The agency commissioned a six-month final feasibility study on the KF-X program in April.

The report suggests major changes in required operational capabilities (ROCs) for the KF-X aircraft. In particular, the report says the KF-X jet should be an F-16-class fighter to be developed by foreign aircraft manufacturers.

Initiated in 2001, the KF-X program had originally been aimed at developing and producing by 2020 about 120 fifth-generation fighters stealthier than Dassault's Rafale or the Eurofighter Typhoon, though not as much as Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightening II.

``The KF-X ROCs have been readjusted to a realistic level after consultations among parties concerned, as developing a full stealth fighter has already been assessed as technically and economically nonviable,'' a procurement official said on condition of anonymity.

...

According to the interim report, the KF-X will be an F-16 Block 50 level multi-role fighter jet with an engine thrust of 50,000 pounds. The aircraft would have either one or two engines, but a twin-engine system is preferred, it says.

...

In a related move, a chief researcher at the state-funded Korea Institute for Defense Analyses (KIDA) said the nation could delay the purchase of foreign stealth fighters under the F-X multi-phase fighter procurement program.

The F-X aims to buy 120 high-end fighter jets by 2020 in an effort to modernize the Air Force's fighter fleet. Boeing won the previous two deals in 2002 and 2008 to provide a total of 41 F-15Ks.

Seoul officials had said the third phase program, expected to begin by 2012, would focus on obtaining fifth-generation stealth fighters. The Lockheed Martin-built F-35 was referred to as a front-runner for the deal.

``At the request of the MND, a KIDA team began a comprehensive review of the Air Force's operational requirements and the effectiveness of the Air Force's current operational structure of high-, medium- and low-class aircraft,'' the researcher, who leads the feasibility study said, requesting to remain anonymous.

The researcher noted the procurement of the F-35 would be a key topic.

``South Korea, for sure, should purchase and operate stealth fighters as the radar-evading aircraft are expected to dominate the skies in the coming years. But as far as the timing is concerned, we need to think more and make a wise decision,'' he said.

Adopting early versions of the F-35 could cause operational risks, he said, so that Seoul should delay buying the aircraft by 2020 when its performances will be proved and upgraded.

He suggested introducing more ``4.5-generation'' fighters, such as Boeing's F-15 Silent Eagle, before the procurement of stealth-fighters could be an option to fill the Air Force's possible operational gap.

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Rufus 7/27/2009 12:35:44 PM

Naturally as previous facts have done nothing to drag our latest fanboy back into the real world I don't expect these new facts to help much either...

...but I thought a few people here might be curious what is actually going on after all the misinformation that has been posted lately.

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Herald12345 Thanks. 7/27/2009 1:54:04 PM

Naturally as previous facts have done nothing to drag our latest fanboy back into the real world I don't expect these new facts to help much either...

...but I thought a few people here might be curious what is actually going on after all the misinformation that has been posted lately.

I am waiting for some US aircraft manufacturer to take a whack at the PRATT F-119/135 or the RR/GE F-136 to meet the projected specs.

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SlowMan 7/27/2009 2:54:46 PM

@ Rufus

> In particular, the report says the KF-X jet should be an F-16-class fighter to be developed by foreign aircraft manufacturers.

Well, this is just an outside study required by their law to fund any major project. It will be ignored just like how the previous cost/benefit analysis that was ignored. Cost/benefits analysis makes sense for building bridges and airports. It makes no sense to do this kind of study on a defense project, but it is still required by law and is done only to be ignored.

> KF-X will be an F-16 Block 50 level multi-role fighter jet with an engine thrust of 50,000 pounds.

Since when was the last time you saw an F-16 Block 50 with an engine thrust of 50,000 lbs minimum??? Heck, even F135's thrust is 40,000 lbs. Clearly they are talking about a twin-engine aircraft with a higher thrust than current Super Hornet and Typhoon.

> The F-X aims to buy 120 high-end fighter jets by 2020

No, F-X III is a program to order 60 fighters for delivery starting in 2014.

> Boeing won the previous two deals in 2002 and 2008 to provide a total of 41 F-15Ks.

The contract was for 61. FX-III adds 60 more with first delivery starting in 2014.

> The Lockheed Martin-built F-35 was referred to as a front-runner for the deal.

No, it's F-15K vs Typhoon. Lockheed Martin's blacklisted at Korean DoD. It is no accident that Boeing keeps winning military aircraft contracts in Korea and won about $9 billion worth so far since 2002, with $9 billlion more to come(tankers and F-X III) excluding KFX. Boeing knows how to scratch Korean DoD's back.

> Seoul should delay buying the aircraft by 2020 when its performances will be proved and upgraded.

And what are they gonna do until 2023, the earliest date when the first delivery could arrive if the order is placed in 2020? They need the delivery starting in 2014, not 2023.

> He suggested introducing more ``4.5-generation'' fighters, such as Boeing's F-15 Silent Eagle

F-15 SE is already ruled out. It's stock F-15K or Typhoon, depending on who gets the KFX contract.

@ Herald12345

> I am waiting for some US aircraft manufacturer to take a whack at the PRATT F-119/135 or the RR/GE F-136 to meet the projected specs.

F119 is not for sale, while F135/136 cannot supercruise.

There is a reason why F414 EDE+ and EJ2X0 are candidates; these two are only two supercruise-capable western engines. F414 EDE+ is leading the race because there will be other customers for it beside KFX(Namely US Navy's Super Horners receiving engine upgrades, a future version of Gripen NG, and Korea's own F/A-50 when the contractual issues with LM is worked out), and the twin engine aircraft powered by it, the Super Hornet.

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Rufus 7/27/2009 3:04:34 PM

Ah, lets see here...

Who to believe?

An article, with actual sources, describing a realistic program to procure a very high-end 4th generation aircraft in a realistic time period?

Or some teenaged fanboy who insists, without sources, that a ridiculous development program will shortly be launched to create a 5th generation fighter on a shoe-string budget faster than a short-order cook could make a plate of scrambled eggs...

Oh yeah, and the fanboy in question has already been established to be at best, semi-literate, and at worst a liar.

This article contradicts everything you have been saying on this board for the last several weeks for a good reason slowman, the article is accurate.

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Herald12345 7/27/2009 3:07:22 PM

Ever hear of the YF-120, poster? Its not classified or very secret.

Information and discussion....

Like several other would be technology commentators, here, I don't take you very seriously.

Herald

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SlowMan 7/27/2009 3:25:44 PM

@ Rufus

> with actual sources

The article talked to "wrong people", the outside independent analysts who tried to make the "business case" like they do with building bridges and highways and came up with a negative report. If their reports actually meant something in actual decision making by the higher level, then KFX would have been dead a long time ago.

> the article is accurate.

If that's the case, then what's the purpose of KFX? Boeing already offered to move the F-15E assembly line to Korea, and Koreans could press out 300 F-15Ks far cheaper than the total cost of KFX project. So why even bother?

@ Herald12345

> Ever hear of the YF-120, poster?

Yes, unfinished F120 engine that died with YF-23 20 years ago. F414 is alive and kicking, F120 not so much.

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Rufus 7/27/2009 4:07:19 PM

"The article talked to "wrong people", the outside independent analysts who tried to make the "business case" like they do with building bridges and highways and came up with a negative report. If their reports actually meant something in actual decision making by the higher level, then KFX would have been dead a long time ago."

No kid, they spoke to experts who actually know how things work in the real world. Not fanboys posting to internet message boards without a shred of information. (see below quote)

"The KF-X ROCs have been readjusted to a realistic level after consultations among parties concerned, as developing a full stealth fighter has already been assessed as technically and economically nonviable,'' a procurement official said on condition of anonymity.

"If that's the case, then what's the purpose of KFX? Boeing already offered to move the F-15E assembly line to Korea, and Koreans could press out 300 F-15Ks far cheaper than the total cost of KFX project. So why even bother?"

WOW!

Is it possible?

Are you beginning to develop the ability to think?

That is exactly what this article was explaining. The cost of developing a 5th generation fighter is too high for Korea to bear and they don't possess the technology to do it in the first place.

A high-end 4th generation plane with relatively generous work-share for domestic industry and some domestic avionics?

That is available.

That is more or less what India is seeking to buy, and it is more or less the same thing Korea will ultimately pursue.

The exact airframe remains to be determined, but it will likely be an upgraded Super Hornet or F-15SE type aircraft. Such an aircraft could be available for domestic assembly at a reasonable cost within the time-lines Korea has discussed.

Sometime in the 2020 time-frame Korea can worry about buying a 5th generation fighter, most likely the F-35.

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SlowMan 7/27/2009 4:58:08 PM

@ Rufus

> they spoke to experts who actually know how things work in the real world.

No, the "experts" that article is quoting are the very civilian analysts who wrote that "cost/benefit doesn't make sense" report. Again, this is merely a procedural step required of any massive government project to hear "the opposing views". It's not legally binding or anything and is intended to be a "reference", and certainly will not pursade top brass that already made up their mind. This is not some highway construction project where benefits must be considered.

> a procurement official said on condition of anonymity.

The decision like this is made by the military and the president because it is an issue of national security. The fact that minimum quantity has been increased from 120 to 250 shows that the DoD is trying to make this into one of "too big to kill" project.

> That is exactly what this article was explaining.

No it is not. It merely quotes from the yet to be finished second civilian report that suggests alternatives, which will then be ignored. These are the very same type of report that opposed $1 billion/copy Aegis destroyer project, saying 20 Corvettes are just as effective against North Koreans or something like that. Of course that was quickly overruled because the Aegis destroyers weren't aimed at North Koreans. Same battle is brewing against ten 3,000 ton 16 cruise missile loaded subs at a cost of $1 billion each. You will see the same old "Why do you need to blow $10 billion on subs to launch cruise missiles against North Koreans from the Pacific Ocean" rant in the civilian report. The answer is that those subs aren't aimed at North Koreans.

> The cost of developing a 5th generation fighter is too high for Korea to bear

$10 billion should be enough to build something out of a Super Hornet.

> and they don't possess the technology to do it in the first place.

Even the misquided reports you quote says Korea have 63%(DoD figure is 70%) of tech required to build a 5th gen fighter.

> A high-end 4th generation plane with relatively generous work-share for domestic industry and some domestic avionics?

That's called moving F-15E line to Korea. Korean DoD already turned it down.

> That is more or less what India is seeking to buy, and it is more or less the same thing Korea will ultimately pursue.

No, they are looking for a fighter aircraft to engage JASDF and Chinese past 2020.

> Sometime in the 2020 time-frame Korea can worry about buying a 5th generation fighter, most likely the F-35.

F-35 better be supercruising by then.

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Herald12345 A core kernel is a core 7/27/2009 9:17:15 PM

F-136 is that YF-120 kernel; kid.

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