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Subject: Why 183 Raptors is NOT enough.
Herald12345    6/28/2009 2:53:01 PM
Study results follows in next post. Herald
 
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DarthAmerica       7/1/2009 7:27:30 PM

It is JUST the target I would tell the PRC bandits they risk. Non nuclear and the result is flooding. All they have to do to keep us away from it is BEHAVE.



Yeah, and they would politely explain the joys of nuclear weapons back to you.


 

Would you prefer nuclear weapons? I don't, not when I can bring them to heel so simply and sharply. And what of the innocents they kill now in their colonial imperialism; and the environmental damage they do in AFRICA and Southeast Asia? 


Well then if this is the case, stop making suggestions that would almost certainly cause their use. You would have been wiser to suggest blockade. A step that could be tailored from less than lethal to mining their harbors> it could be called off at anytime without effects that last a century either.

 



Why should the PRC bandits sow the wind and not reap the whirlwind? 

 

As for world opinion, Rwanda massacre,.......Darfur....to hell with that so called "world opinion".  

 

Herald 


Spoken like a person who truly doesn't understand how war and politics work. If world opinion didn't matter, then we would not be apologizing for killing innocent Afghans in air strikes. In this case where you are suggesting we kill innocent Chinese, you would put at risk access to the bases you need because the host nations will rebuke you for your slaughter or because they don't want to risk justified Chinese Nuclear retaliation.


People in Africa don't have the global relation ship and economic clout the Chinese do. Thousands of dead Chinese matter more than thousands of dead Africans. Sad, racist, but true.


Again, you don't know the first thing about combined arms operations OIF(You have never been and are too arrogant to listen to those who have), you don't know about UAS(another thing you have ZERO exposure to) and you don't understand Sun Tzu well enough to quote him.


Again, now we can add blowing up the Three Gorges to your list of silly military suggestions. Look, it's clear you are a fairly smart person with interest in military affairs. But you are way outside your area of expertise with regard to application and it shows big time. Do what other smart people do when you don't know. ASK. That way you stop making suggestions that cause international incidents and/or nuclear war.

 

-DA 


 
 
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warpig       7/1/2009 7:32:43 PM

WP. A few million dislocated peasants is BETTER than our or Taiwanese slavery and ruin. How many would we kill in a bomb the invasion assembly areas campaiugn? Tens of thousands? How many would we drown? Tens of thousands?  DEAD is DEAD.

 


 
Well, USAF deals in the Laws of Armed Conflict, and the number of civilians intentionally targeted while taking out the Chinese invasion forces would be pretty much zero, and even the unintenional casualties is likely to be oders of magnitude fewer than the sorts of claims I've seen asserted regarding the result of catastrophic breach of that dam.
 
Honestly, Herald, I seriously can't even fathom how you could compare the two target sets....


 
 
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ArtyEngineer    Herald   7/1/2009 7:51:33 PM














Missed the POINT again, "rocket expert".. 







No, and you would be well advised to shut up and listen. Of course you wont since you choose to comment on things you have no experience with but just the same. You have no idea whatsoever what I relied on or how we did what we did.







-DA 













THINK HARD before you respond with something STUPID, poster.







 







 Herald













No, you don't. Now, the only thing stupid is continuing on about ourselves. Get back on topic about why you think 243 F-22s is a minimum and I'll show you why I disagree with it. Otherwise, you are being STUPID.










-DA 




For a expert^1 who claimed to run truck convoys in Iraq, who talks so foolishly about UAVs  I expected just that sort of stupid answer.

 

We use our UAVs to predict threat vectors and do post BDA on the PRC IADS after an air battle, you amateur. 


 

Reconnaissance is part of combined arms, it can be done by scouts air and ground.  In accordance with US Army doctrine is usually tasked to the cavalry. The Air Force also conducts reconnaossance and supplies that information REAL TIME to the Army so it can supply routes and ground intel to units that SUPPLY combat units and garrisons in Iraq. That same REAL TIME intel is used to plan unit movement REAL TIME in combat as our infantry and ARMOR goes to dig out some of Muqtadr al Sadr's goons in one of their hide-outs for example.


 

You've always talked about things military and technical like a supply/support weenie and not a combat soldier or a combat arms fighter here. Why is that?  .

 

 I gave BW much the same warning. Don't try to bluff or buffalo me.


 

 Herald

 

 ^1 The purpose of this exercise us to show exactly what you are, poster. The F-22 and the Taiwan problem is as beyond you as understanding HOW physics really works.

 

 

 

Herald,
I actually enjoy the exchanges between you and my mate Darth, they usually actually contain decent info of great interest to me, however do me one small favor, dont ever ever refer to folks in the supply/support echelons of the Armed Forces as Weenies.  I dont care how well trained our trigger pullers are or how dominant our equipment is if that is backed up by a whole dedicated support structure of competent supply and maintenance personnel that you may as well give the Grunts pointy stick!!! 
 
At this moment in time an awfull lot of our supply and maintenance guys have done their deployments as regular infantry pounding the streets of Iraq or teh mountains of Afghanistan.  My boys from 5th Battalion 10th Marine Regiment (An Arty Unit) Are right
 
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DarthAmerica       7/1/2009 8:04:49 PM

Herald,


I actually enjoy the exchanges between you and my mate Darth, they usually actually contain decent info of great interest to me, however do me one small favor, dont ever ever refer to folks in the supply/support echelons of the Armed Forces as Weenies.  I dont care how well trained our trigger pullers are or how dominant our equipment is if that is backed up by a whole dedicated support structure of competent supply and maintenance personnel that you may as well give the Grunts pointy stick!!! 

 

At this moment in time an awfull lot of our supply and maintenance guys have done their deployments as regular infantry pounding the streets of Iraq or teh mountains of Afghanistan.  My boys from 5th Battalion 10th Marine Regiment (An Arty Unit) Are right now humping the hills of afghanistan, and thats not just teh 0811 Cannon Crewmen its everyone from their Arty Mechs, their Vehicle Mechanics from Motor T, their Optics Techs, their Supply and Ordnance Officers, EVERYONE.  So to reiterate less of the "Weenie" terminology.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Arty


Ditto, and I'll add that these days, even the USAF has truck drivers and support personnel out on the roads of Iraq taking the same risk as us Infantry. More so to an extent but I'd rather not discuss the particulars of that while my brothers AND sisters in arms are still out there on the road.

-DA 
 

 
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gf0012-aust       7/1/2009 8:41:40 PM
Concur, however, this is what was said...
yep. ack and granted.  my point was to reinforce that busting the dam is less defensible than busting the turbines and everything within "nn" range attached to the grid.

even in a total war scenario, you'd want to have a damn good case (and make sure that your country won the war so as to dictate the post judicial processes (!!) to keep the shooters and planners out of the clutches of the ensuing JAG imbroglio.

In fact, I can't imagine anyone from the uniformed "legals" approving the targetting of the dam unless it had direct unimpeachable military value - and in a logical sense it doesn't.  the dam is there to provide water to generate the hydropower - ipso facto - the intent is to kill the capacity to generate power (which is a defensible military  target).

Intentionlly busting the dam, IMO leaves you open to pursuit  by the JAG (US), common criminal law pursuit (civil action) and potentially a big song and dance via Brussels and the ICC. (not that the US would ever let its people be pursued in the ICC anyway) but it is an issue anyway.

btw, I'm not taking sides here, I am stating my own position on how I believe it would be viewed. 
 
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Herald12345    Harbors? Who are you kidding?    7/1/2009 8:41:58 PM




WP. A few million dislocated peasants is BETTER than our or Taiwanese slavery and ruin. How many would we kill in a bomb the invasion assembly areas campaiugn? Tens of thousands? How many would we drown? Tens of thousands?  DEAD is DEAD.




 






 

Well, USAF deals in the Laws of Armed Conflict, and the number of civilians intentionally targeted while taking out the Chinese invasion forces would be pretty much zero, and even the unintenional casualties is likely to be oders of magnitude fewer than the sorts of claims I've seen asserted regarding the result of catastrophic breach of that dam.

 

Honestly, Herald, I seriously can't even fathom how you could compare the two target sets....





 


And what of the Taiwanese civilians who would be murdered in a PRC bandit attack? Seriously you need to get some perspective and reality here. We cannot guarantee anything. We couldn't in Iraq.TODAY. That is the nature of air power and WAR. We miss. How many civilians did we kill in that Taliban leader's funeral last week when we bombed it, 80? Just to kill four alleged "leaders"?
====================================================
And a lesson in combined arms for the "expert".
 
 
 
Major military operation under way in Afghanistan
Jul 1 08:14 PM US/Eastern
By FISNIK ABRASHI and LARA JAKES
Associated Press Writers
 
KABUL (AP) - Thousands of U.S. Marines... and hundreds of Afghan troops moved into Taliban-infested villages with armor and helicopters Wednesday evening in the first major operation under President Barack Obama's revamped strategy to stabilize Afghanistan....
 
The offensive in the once-forgotten war was launched shortly after 1 a.m. Thursday local time in Helmand... province, a Taliban stronghold in the southern part of the country. The goal is to clear insurgents from the hotly contested Quote    Reply

Slim Pickinz       7/1/2009 9:20:35 PM
"And what of the Taiwanese civilians who would be murdered in a PRC bandit attack? Seriously you need to get some perspective and reality here. We cannot guarantee anything. We couldn't in Iraq.TODAY. That is the nature of air power and WAR. We miss. How many civilians did we kill in that Taliban leader's funeral last week when we bombed it, 80? Just to kill four alleged "leaders"?"
Those "civilians" were supporters of the Taliban, and they knew the risks of attending the funeral of enemies of the United States. They were not simply "innocents".
 
Any PRC invasion of Taiwan would be focused on the destruction of military targets, while trying to avoid destruction of infrastructure and and economic capabilities, as to preserve the RoC industry and research potential, as well as minimize the animosity of the RoC general population against any occupying force, as previously stated by someone else. Any civilians killed in these attacks would be incidental collatoral damage, not intentionally targeted.
 
On the other hand, a breach of Three Gorges would be knowingly killing tens to hundreds of thousands of civilians to accomplish a mission that is beyond the necessary scope of the defense of Taiwan, mainly to stop the amphibious forces before they reach Taiwan and degrading the ability of the PRC armed forces to continue the campaign. Anything more and you are risking escalation of the conflict.
 
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mustang22       7/1/2009 9:25:58 PM
Selling our hi-tech fighters [Re: Dark Horse...]
KYpatriot... Offline
Lance Corporal

Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 44
Loc: central KY
Thanks DarkHorse/Artic. I have been out for a couple of years now but would love to drop a few more JDAMs for you -no doubt more are needed. Good discussion.

The F-15E is one of the most capable 4th generation fighters out there but there is some truth in the statement that a full up fight against another large scale force with modern equipment (Su-27/Su-35) would not be totally one sided. Fog of war and all that. 1 v 1 I would put one of our guys up against anyone out there, bar none, with confidence. I have been in a lot of international exercises and the US operates head and shoulders above anyone, period. That doesn't mean they are invincible and of course in a WWIII type scenario we would expect losses.

My concerns about the Raptor are more along the lines of sheer numbers. Clearly superior technology is often decisive, but only to a point. When you are out of missiles you are out of missiles. Two F-22s will be winchester(out of ammo) before 4 F-15s, simple as that. So at some point quantity has a quality all its own. Our national warfighting policy places total air superiority as our first objective so that no US ground force needs to worry about an enemy air force. The question is are 185 F-22s enough to obtain this prime objective. I dont know the answer to that.
 
 
 Darth,
 
Thought you might like this. It came from a discussion I am having with an F-15E pilot on Snipers Hide. Seems that "total air superiority as our first objective" is not so far fetched.
 
 
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DarthAmerica       7/1/2009 9:29:44 PM


And a lesson in combined arms for the "expert".

Now I wonder if you have anything left to say on ANY Topic..

To me you are no better than Blue Wings, now.

Herald


 
Of course you wonder. Because you don't understand why the issue of combined arms came up in the thread. LB, who is about as clueless as you are on war, completely missed my point when I mentioned that war IS POSSIBLE in the absence of high tech weapons BUT NOT POSSIBLE in the absence of infantry, The context of that statement is that spending DoD funds on F-22's when so many other critical needs lack funding doesn't make sense. YES I REALIZE USAF AND US ARMY have separate budgets. However, it is the principle that the F-22 represents which has roots in the Cold War. We cannot afford to spend money and time on weapons and methods of warfare that are not representative of the conflicts we will have. That isn't to say F-22s are irrelevant. But buying them in absurdly high numbers beyond what we need to defeat threats is. That you lack the mental agility to discern that and have chosen to pursue a stupid strawman argument about combined arms only further demonstrates you need stick to things you do know, such as aerodynamics and and some technical issues and leave the strategy and tactics discussions to experts and people who do know. You have demonstrated incompetence at the tactical level with your missiles for merchants idea and now at the strategic level by not realizing that the laws of war and the not so small issue of China actually having nuclear weapons makes your suggestion of busting that dam stuck on stupid. Nevermind the fact that you don't even respect or realize that it is not an insult to call someone an "Army Truck Driver". If you had any idea what that meant in todays wars then you would not have made the comment you did earlier and got rebuked on. So adding insult to injury, not only are you technically incompetent(refer to an OER) on strategy and tactics. You are ignorant of what is happening on battlefields. Using your words, you are "not qualified" to be in this discussion with the level of arrogance you have.


-DA

 

P.S. Since you claim to be an efficient strategist and you see the Three Gorges and a legitimate target. How many F-22's would be necessary to escort the strike package necessary to bring it down? Still think we need 183 Raptors...lol. You're own logic doesn't stand up to scrutiny!
 
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DarthAmerica       7/1/2009 9:37:44 PM


Selling our hi-tech fighters

[Re: Dark Horse...]


KYpatriot...
Offline



Lance Corporal




Registered: 03/31/09


Posts: 44


Loc: central KY



Thanks DarkHorse/Artic. I have been out for a couple
of years now but would love to drop a few more JDAMs for you -no doubt
more are needed. Good discussion.



The F-15E is one of the most
capable 4th generation fighters out there but there is some truth in
the statement that a full up fight against another large scale force
with modern equipment (Su-27/Su-35) would not be totally one sided. Fog
of war and all that. 1 v 1 I would put one of our guys up against
anyone out there, bar none, with confidence. I have been in a lot of
international exercises and the US operates head and shoulders above
anyone, period. That doesn't mean they are invincible and of course in
a WWIII type scenario we would expect losses.



My concerns
about the Raptor are more along the lines of sheer numbers. Clearly
superior technology is often decisive, but only to a point. When you
are out of missiles you are out of missiles. Two F-22s will be
winchester(out of ammo) before 4 F-15s, simple as that. So at some
point quantity has a quality all its own. Our national warfighting
policy places total air superiority as our first objective so that no
US ground force needs to worry about an enemy air force.
The question
is are 185 F-22s enough to obtain this prime objective. I dont know the
answer to that.

 

 

 Darth,

 

Thought you might like this. It came from a discussion I am having with an F-15E pilot on Snipers Hide. Seems that "total air superiority as our first objective" is not so far fetched.


 




I agree with that in principle. Moreover, as you know, I think 180+ F-22's are enough. However, there are circumstances where getting everything all in order and getting Air Superiority first will not be an option or even necessary. For instance, when the U.S. Milit
 
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