2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale

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gf0012-aust 7/3/2009 5:15:41 PM

No you don't. If you did, you'd know that the MICA IR seeker used a micro-cooler provided by Thales Cryogenics. From a French article (translation is mine):

Thank goodness you got it. I spent 2 monthts asking BW to articulate what he understood hot and cold cooling was for imaging systems and he came back with some inance commentary related to negative or thermal grayscale imaging (except he didn't use any of the correct terminology)

I am going to support Herald on his awareness though, as he and I (along with a few others from here) had some offline traffic about cryogenics and the fact that BW obviously didn't know what he was talking about. I would still personally claim that the Swedes have better cryo cooling on their imaging systems than Thales - and I've had some involvement in the past evaluating both.

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Herald12345 U've been talking about heat birden and the inadequacy of the Thales cryo-chiller 7/4/2009 10:28:54 AM

That being said , when and where I used exageration ? You tell me Sir .

Every time you claim the Rafale is the best at everything. Like in this thread, you're trying to imply it's better than a plane with better TWR and vector thrusting. Even if the Rafale is better at keeping its energy, the F-22 energy output is so much higher that it won't make a difference.

Rafel has its strong and weak point like any other plane. But all you manage to do when you oversell the strong points is dicredit yourself. And the end result is that this site has become nothing but a "let's bash the Rafale" in every other thread with you as the "clown de service".

I actually do know the missile, kumquat.

No you don't. If you did, you'd know that the MICA IR seeker used a micro-cooler provided by Thales Cryogenics. From a French article (translation is mine):

And who cares?

"Cryotechnologies [now part of Thales Cryogenics] took up this challenge with a never seen before solution in a French AAM: the installation of a splitted rotative Stirling group extracting 0.5W at cryogenic temperatures. The oscillator placed inside the missile body produces the cold and transmit it through a "cold finger" to a cryostat placed next to the seeker. The oscillator was placed far from the seeker to minimize unwanted vibrations. Beyond the thermal constraints, this system can withstand 30 to 40g accelarations. The cooler is designed to operate for at least 200 hours."

Took them two decades and they still screwed it up

Now what was your claim in the other thread? That it had to use either an external supply of coolant or at best a Peltier system? An incorrect claim made by a vindicative know-nothing.

Nope I never actually said; so I now know ywo things. One you don't read, and two you don't know what a Peltier system or how Stirling cooling works. Better do some googling, google boy..You'll be SURPRISED by what you find.

And for your information, the MICA has an inertial reference unit and does not need to lock on the target before launch. In LOAL mode, it works exactly like the AMRAAM with an inertial navigation phase (with target updates provided by the lunching planes through the one-way plane-missile link). The seeker only turns itself on for the end game (for the MICA EM, the MICA IR seeker is of course continuously operating throughout the flight) when it uses some variation of proportional navigation to close on its target like, well, pretty much every AAM or SAM over the last 50 years.

Its called an INS or inertial navigation system. Don't try to buzz word me, punk. The missile update also doesn't work bewcauae they never fuxed the antenna. I've talked about that for years, too. The IR seeker doesn't work unless the target is in the FoV. Talked about that too. You are fairly dumb.about this, too Need to read what I wrote about the missile and quit claimimg that you know something. You already revealed that you don't/..

for months, you idiot. I see where BW suddenly got his knowledge about WHY the MICA sensor or any A2A missile UR sensor needs a cryo-chiller from. From what rock did he recruit you under, fanboy?

ROTFLMAO

Come in here and quote magazine brochires at me.

Another PUNK.

Herald

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Bluewings12 7/4/2009 1:23:42 PM

Blue Apple :

""Every time you claim the Rafale is the best at everything. Like in this thread, you're trying to imply it's better than a plane with better TWR and vector thrusting. Even if the Rafale is better at keeping its energy, the F-22 energy output is so much higher that it won't make a difference.""

So much higher energy out put ?? The F-22 TWR @50% fuel is 1.26 , Rafale TWR @50% fuel is 1.20 , this is comparable . It is the aerodynamics who make the difference and you know it Blue Apple . Yes the Rafale performs better in a turning dogfight than the F-22 .

You should have left Herald responding to my questions before to give the answer . You could also have posted the begining of the article :

"The mosaic homing head multicellule of the Mica IR carries out an imagery of bands I and II and more visualizes the heating of the leading edges or the skin of the engine that the gases of the exhaust . Contrary to the OSF, the band 8-12 µm is not used for the homing head of the Mica; this is due at the very high speed of the missile, which induces temperatures too high of the port-hole: few materials resist these temperatures in 8-12 µm."

Blue Apple , something is telling that you are NOT French .

gf :

""I spent 2 monthts asking BW to articulate what he understood hot and cold cooling was for imaging systems and he came back with some inance commentary related to negative or thermal grayscale imaging (except he didn't use any of the correct terminology)""

Sorry , I never fully understood your question it seems .

Hearld (about the Mica IR seeker) :

Took them two decades and they still screwed it up

The clown has no proof and nothing to back up his stupid and vindicative claim and he will not find anything .

""The missile update also doesn't work bewcauae they never fuxed the antenna. I've talked about that for years, too. The IR seeker doesn't work unless the target is in the FoV""

Another lie from a know-nothing . He indeed talked about it but he has always been unable to provide anything meaningfull , to say the least . I am not even sure that he knows the FoV angle of the seeker .

Basicaly with Herald , check the links he sometimes provide but forget the rest , it 's not worth it .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 7/4/2009 2:30:15 PM

Since we speak about the Mica 's seekers , the EM seeker is evolving . A new homing head is being worked on (the 4ANG) to able the missile to deal more easily with low RCS target and towed jammers .

"The improvements having been the subject of studies and former developments were integrated in a demonstrator of homing head 4ANG which was evaluated by the DCE, in digital simulation and hybrid with the CELAR and in-flight tests with the CEV with Cazaux. The technologies developed with this occasion made it possible to treat obsolescences and to reduce the production costs of series, in particular by the generalized use of components out of plastic case, while increasing the performances. The missiles Mica NT, Aster and Meteor will profit directly from these technological advancements. Since the drafting there is more than fifteen years of the general specifications of the first French anti-aircraft missiles with active electromagnetic guidance (primarily Mica and Aster), the operational context deeply evolved/moved with the vulgarizing of angular jamming (towed jammers, active lures?) and proliferation of targets of very weak RCS which includes, in addition to the cruise missiles and the drones, tactical ballistic missiles. These studies started with the improvement of angular discrimination to allow the continuation of a quiet target in the presence of dépointés jammers (towed jammers, co-operative jammers, jammers of escort, remote jammers of safety stand-off?). They gave place to the realization of a prototype of homing head called ANGEL (electromagnetic Homing head new generation). They continued with the exploitation of the progress made in the field of the transmitters and the numerical synthesis of frequency, giving access thus novel modes of operation (high-resolution outdistances, agility of frequency, intermediate frequency of recurrence?) offering significant performance profits. To develop these various studies, SPNuM entrusted at Thalès Airborne systems the realization of a demonstrator of anti-aircraft active homing head of new generation: 4ANG. This homing head has increased capacities of angular discrimination and distance thanks to the implementation of the new functionalities. These improvements could be applied to the programs Mica NT, SAMP-T, PAAMS and, later on, to the Meteor program."

Thalès is not sleeping .

Cheers .

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Herald12345 They found their so called two stage cycle solid state sterling device doesn't work. 7/5/2009 1:33:40 AM

Simple isn't it? Let me know when you catch on, punks.

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Bluewings12 7/5/2009 9:36:08 AM

Words without substance . Prove it .

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 7/5/2009 12:28:57 PM

You are called lying again . Where and when did you prove it ? Nowhere .

Where and what is your case ? Where are your proofs ? Any study or official article from Thalès ?

You got nothing clown .

Cheers .

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Herald12345 Ces't le clown. 7/5/2009 2:52:30 PM

READ and then be silent.

Herald

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Blue Apple 7/6/2009 3:55:20 AM

Herald:

Took them two decades and they still screwed it up

Nope, the integrated cooling of the MICA IR works fine. And of course mechanics are delighted about not having to manage gas bottles anymore.

If you want to talk about screw up, I believe the ASRAAM would be a more fitting topic (a modern IR AAM without TVC, no integrated cooling and an INS but no data link? WTF? Well, at least the seeker imaging is world class....).

Nope I never actually said

Let's see: on the 23 March 2009 you claimed that:

"It means how long the gas flask is good before it has to be recharged before all the gas leaks out.Just how big a gas supply do you think the chiller can carry you buffoon? Of course the MICA could possibly use a primitive Peltier cooling unit, but that lasts only as long as the batteries hold out. That isn't very long either. By the way, we Americans, and some others use something called a Stirling cryo-engine, dummy, to cool our Sidewinders' seekers. Don't bother to google it. You'll find it, but you won't understand it at all."

Obviously the French understand it very well since the MICA IR entered service with a similar solution 3 years before the AIM-9X...

And obviously you did demonstrate your ignorance about the MICA seeker cooling by making that comment.

The missile update also doesn't work bewcauae they never fuxed the antenna.

Could you explain what you meant in proper English? The aircraft missile link (LAM in French) works fine (it didn't work reliably on the F1 Rafale back in 2003 but it was fixed soon after).

The IR seeker doesn't work unless the target is in the FoV.

Is there any seeker that works if the target is not in their field of view? That's a rather weird statement.

Besides, the MICA IR seeker is mounted on a gimbal with a +/- 60° pointing range so unless the target is behind the missile the MICA IR seeker can always point directly on it.

Need to read what I wrote about the missile and quit claimimg that you know

Why would I spend time reading junk? Your repeated claim that IR & RF missile use different pursuit strategies is a complete fabrication. Anyone can google "proportional navigation" + missile and see for themselves that pretty much every missile has used that class of algorithm for the last 40 years.

BW:

So much higher energy out put ?? The F-22 TWR @50% fuel is 1.26 , Rafale TWR @50% fuel is 1.20 , this is comparable . It is the aerodynamics who make the difference and you know it Blue Apple . Yes the Rafale performs better in a turning dogfight than the F-22 .

A F-22 with 50% internal fuel is about the same as a Rafale loaded with full internal fuel...

I agree that the Rafale is probably better at conserving its energy (the Le Bourget demo is quite telling, with minimal airflow disruption even during >9g turns). But the F-22 can generate so much more energy it isn't even a close contest.

Blue Apple , something is telling that you are NOT French .

Well, a few km southwards and I would be.

Thalès is not sleeping .

I would hope. The RF seeker they're using everywhere is based on 20 years old technology.

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Bluewings12 7/6/2009 11:21:03 AM

Herald , the link you gave us is only showing you expressing your "opinion" and talking junk .

If it 's all you have , you indeed have nothing , case closed .

Since Blue Apple rightfully corrected you , I let it go ...

Blue Apple :

""But the F-22 can generate so much more energy it isn't even a close contest.""

Could you explain to me what you mean exactly ? Are you talking about acceleration , eg : x Seconds from 100knt to 450knt ?

If its the case , the F-22 indeed has a better acceleration at high altitude but in "ra-da-da" (under 2000m) the Rafale has the edge and we are talking about acceleration in a straigh line . Acceleration during cornering (dogfight) is waay in favor of Rafale .

""I agree that the Rafale is probably better at conserving its energy (the Le Bourget demo is quite telling, with minimal airflow disruption even during >9g turns)""

Yes , it is true . We just have to look at the latest Typhoon display which shows great airflow disruption (a la F-18) :

h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB_rHAICeVM

So , you are Belge ?

Cheers .

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Herald12345 7/6/2009 12:51:20 PM

Herald:

Took them two decades and they still screwed it up

Nope, the integrated cooling of the MICA IR works fine. And of course mechanics are delighted about not having to manage gas bottles anymore.

It doesn't matter if the chiller works as long as the chioller is inadequate to chill.

What kind of idiot are you?

The AIM-132 is a high-speed short-range rocket-powered missile with a low-drag configuration without any forward flying surfaces. The missile is compatible with all available target designation systems like radar, electro-optical sensors and helmet-mounted cueing sights, and its low-smoke solid-propellant rocket motor provides very high acceleration off the launch rail. Using its four cruciform tail surfaces, the ASRAAM can pull up to 50 g immediately after launch. The main improvement compared to the existing AIM-9L/M Sidewinder, however, is the new Focal Plane Array IIR (Imaging Infrared) seeker, which is similar to the one used in the American AIM-9X. This seeker has a long acquisition range, high countermeasures resistance, high off-boresight (+/- 90°) field-of-view, and the capability to designate specific parts of the targeted aircraft (like cockpit, engines, etc.). The ASRAAM also has a LOAL (Lock-On After Launch) capability which is a distinct advantage when the missile is carried in an internal weapons bay. The maximum effective range of the missile of course depends on the exact parameters (e.g. head-on or tail-chase engagement), but a figure of 15 km (8 nm) is sometimes quoted (the true figure is probably higher). Minimum range is quoted as around 300 m (1000 ft). The ASRAAM is armed with a 10 kg (22 lb) blast-fragmentation warhead, which is triggered by a combined laser proximity/impact fuzing system.

Explanation for a "so called expert."

ASRAAM IS what MICA pretends to be, a meet to greet IR missile. The Typhoon, or in the American case, the Sparky, radar or DASS tries to get a predict track or bearing data which the computer generates and loads into the ASRAAM GCU. The ASRAAM then points along the track's future predicted line and chases to meet close enough where its imaging sensor will see the image (about 5-10 seconds flyout) where its IR camera starts looking for a close by hot image to match one in its threat libray. At the expected ranges of 5,000-20,000 meters that is quite doable for the Hughes (RAYTHEON) buolt seeker . IF MICA's designers had been happy for a a pure IR missile , ASRAAM is close to what they would have built instead of that FALCON derived fiasco thbey eave . It, ASRAAM, also uses a Joule Thompson gas bottle supplied (Honeywell) chiller to allow it to image discriminate the object's shape. That chiller surrounds the sensor and is not built into it as a HEAT SINK THAT design choice allows a residual insulator effect of the refrigerator loop chill down locally in case the J-T unit fails, kumquat. Its not an all or nothing FAIL like a Stirling. With a big fat missile the British could indulge in a laser ring proximity fuse, a longer burning candle, a nice big explosive warhead, and a dofferent energy use profile that didn't require the added weight of TVC since they know how to use point, cylinder lft, and aft of CG fin control to get what they need out of the missile inlike the fools who built MICA Since its, ASRAAM'S fltyout is also about 15 seconds and its burnout is about six+ seconds after launch, why does it need an update again when it will be in IR camera range of its target? What do you actually KNOW about these rockets, Chester? NOT MUCH IT SEEMS.

=====================================================================

Nope I never actually said

Let's see: on the 23 March 2009 you claimed that:

"It means how long the gas flask is good before it has to be recharged before all the gas leaks out.Just how big a gas supply do you think the chiller can carry you buffoon? Of course the MICA could possibly use a primitive Peltier cooling unit, but that lasts only as long as the batteries hold out. That isn't very long either. By the way, we Americans, and some others use something called a Stirling cryo-engine, dummy, to cool our Sidewinders' seekers. Don't bother to google it. You'll find it, but you won't understand it at all."

Since AIM 9M mod 3, dummy.

Obviously the French understand it very well since the MICA IR entered service with a similar solution 3 years before the AIM-9X...

Well since the Stirling cryo-chiller has been around a while, what took you so long and why did you underestimate the chiller requirements for the velocity profile and friction produced heat burden??

Also how many Honeywell Hymatic patents did THALES and MBDA steal again?

And obviously you did demonstrate your ignorance about the MICA seeker cooling by making that comment.

No. YOU can't read.

The missile update also doesn't work because they never fixed the antenna.

Could you explain what you meant in proper English? The aircraft missile link (LAM in French) works fine (it didn't work reliably on the F1 Rafale back in 2003 but it was fixed soon after).

I make typos and you make comedy. The problem wasn't in the Squall, you amateur, it was in the MICA itself. The transmitter was never the problem. Igf uopi read and understood what I saiud it was IN THE ROCKET. And no it cannot be fixed. They tried.l .

The IR seeker doesn't work unless the target is in the FoV.

Is there any seeker that works if the target is not in their field of view? That's a rather weird statement.

Ours do. The object in the FoV of the MICA seeker doesn't work when the IR sensor overheats. No contrast discrimination. The missile goes BLIND from heat overbuden.

Besides, the MICA IR seeker is mounted on a gimbal with a +/- 60° pointing range so unless the target is behind the missile the MICA IR seeker can always point directly on it.

Doesn't matter. It won't follow the target image across the if its blind due to inability to discriminate betweewn hot source and the halo of the hot ring-surprisingly like the figure 8 halo noise lobe problem of the RBE2 radar-only this is a thermal overload in the shape of a ring!.

Need to read what I wrote about the missile and quit claimimg that you know

Not radar seekers, either ATG or SARH, you idiot,, not since the British perfected retransmission comnmand guidance in the Thunderbirds and certainly not since AMRAAM and PHOENIX. Do you even lmow what the TERMS actually mean?

Here I thought you might be a smart, Brit, but it seems you are what I described, just another fanboy punk.

BW:

Incorrect. You are using internet fanboy numbers.

Blue Apple , something is telling that you are NOT French .

He's British maybe.

Well, a few km southwards and I would be.

Thalès is not sleeping .

I would hope. The RF seeker they're using everywhere is based on 20 years old technology.

And it doesn't work; as the Royal Navy just discovered. Hence the rush for CAMM Too bad MBDA is involveed in that, isn't it?

ROTFLMAO.

Herald

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FJV Hmm. 7/6/2009 1:12:01 PM

Peltier cooling unit

Would not be my 1st choice for cooling purposes.

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Bluewings12 7/6/2009 1:54:01 PM

Nice bla-bla Herald , do you have anything to back up your "opinion" ?..

I 'm afraid not .

What you think about Mica is irrelevant .

Cheers .

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Herald12345 7/6/2009 3:04:28 PM

Peltier cooling unit

Would not be my 1st choice for cooling purposes.

Depends on what you are trying to do FJV. In some cases it, makes perfect sense.

Herald

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Reactive Owch 7/6/2009 3:04:40 PM

Looks like a fellow countryman got utterly bitchslapped.

Industry-specific knowledge always wins. Unless you really do know these systems in near schematic detail you'll have a hard time trying to win an argument by trawling press releases, editorials, etc.

Rufus said something that is both beautifully accurate about the village idiot.

This board might as well be named "Stupid crap some truck driver made up about the Rafale, and efforts to educate a truck driver who can't/won't learn."

Admin?

ReactivE

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