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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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Herald12345       8/1/2009 8:55:42 PM

""I had heard tell the Tyhoon had a smaller RCS than the Rafale""

It doesn 't seem so from what we know and the Rafale pilots seem to enjoy the first look on the Typhoon in every exercises or evaluations . The Rafales pilots also said that the Typhoon could be tracked way earlier than another Rafale .

Prove this.
 
The Eurofighter Typhoon has recieved small RCS reductions but it can 't be compared with the Dassault Rafale .

Rafale 's RCS is at least twice smaller .

Prove this.
 
""(Me) if some rivets are worrying you , just don 't . They are under the RAM coating :"

Rufus :  lol ,That is paint bluewings... big difference."" 

No it is not . You do not know what you are talking about , it is RAM coating . Then , why Dassault and the DGA would "paint" the aircraft with a nice sawtooth grey design ?
 
Sawtooth, there, has nothing to do with RAM, and it in fact is USELESS as a dielectric interrupter in that location. 

You are bashing freely again ...

You are also lying, freely again, so what else is new? 
 
Herald
 
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gf0012-aust       8/1/2009 11:33:05 PM
No it is not . You do not know what you are talking about , it is RAM coating . Then , why Dassault and the DGA would "paint" the aircraft with a nice sawtooth grey design ?

You are bashing freely again ...


well, when you get the fundamentals wrong, then you leave yourself wide open ...

the discussion is not about the sawtoothing - its about the fit and finish of the material.  Have a look at the panel and pattern that both darth and I provided and you see a surface that is irregular and bubbled - its visually there for everyone to see.

You've tried to deny the impact of poor panel fit for over 4 years - and then as well as now I have provided the citations from people involved with signature management, radar development and pilots.  These are mainstream journals that are available within credentialed orgs such as the AOC etc....  The last time you even admitted to concurring after you did your own "research" this despite the fact that I used the same citations I provided in Oct 2005 when you tried to shimmy past the science then.

Those pictures that FS (or Couac Attack ?) provided are self evident.  Nobody can misinterpret them.  Do they need to be reimaged on this thread to make it clear or are you going to spin some other stupid story about how the french have managed to develop corrective signature processes on ill fitting panels and sig managed coating/applique ???

You get the fit and finish done properly in the first place - you don't modify the systems to compensate for an irregularity  which can be fixed by refitting the problem panel.
 
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Lynstyne       8/2/2009 4:40:39 AM
BW
 
If you look at beedals navy matters and on there it states the Rafale was slapped by the Typhoon in every encounter. I dont consider any hearsay valid -I only point the above out to demonstrate favarouble results for every aircraft can be found some where on the web.
 
I myself doubt the rafale can see the Typhoon before the typhoon sees it,  The respective RCS  by youre quotes are not to dissimilar and The typhoons radar is a damn sight bigger    more power more range and potentialy a bigger scanner can produce a narrower beam (If im wrong its been 15 yrs since i covered Radar  fundementals - i may have missremembered the last bit ) so i would expect the typhoon to see rafale 1st.
 
Rafale Tracking a Typhoon at a greater distsance than Rafale can track a rafale well if youre correct (supposition) and typhoon has a larger rcs then thats not suprising, and im not going to dispute it. but that does not mean it will see typhoon first see above.
 
To all
 
many of you have knowledge of each others background and can vouch for each other- so at this point i will give my back ground and hopefully this will explain my damn fool questions and miss informed posts.
 
I am an aircraft engineer (avionics) - was maintenance now sytems integration,
my knowledge of aerodynamics is basic.
radio radar systems i understand the principles of operation as much as is needed to decide which bits broken. I understand broadly what goes on in the box (eg rf mixed with audio and am fm ) but not down to electronics level.
 
once the convo gets down to transisters i go tilt.
 
hope this clears up my ill informed side.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       8/2/2009 6:47:54 AM
many of you have knowledge of each others background and can vouch for each other- so at this point i will give my back ground and hopefully this will explain my damn fool questions and miss informed posts.
personally, I don't see any need for you to validate your position.  as I said before to someone else, my only angst is with those who claim expertise and yet regularly and frequently get the basics wrong, get the terminology wrong (while claiming to be subject matter proficient) and those who continue to beat the same drum when they've had it pointed out. 

after 6 years on here I've had enough of the trolls, so my desire to continue to play nice and suffer the fools who fit the above is sorely tested if not "gone".

I find it particularly amusing when I see some of the trolls argue with absolute conviction against professionals (who haven't advertised what they do) but who I know of personally, some of whom I've met when overseas for work.  I'm quite happy to learn off anyone who demonstrates subject matter expertise...

There's no such thing as a misinformed post when its exploratory (and not malicious in intent) http://www.strategypage.com/Images/emwink.gif" alt="" /> 
 
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Lynstyne       8/2/2009 7:24:10 AM
Rgards GF rereading my post i can only add spelling and grammer arent pre-requisites of the job.
 
I appreciate youre stand point - i dont post often and when i do particuarly on this and the cdo sf board its normally cos im fed up with an individual spouting drivel.
 
I have to say as im sure was obvious from nature of a previous post the Rafale Fan club spouting about typhoon and f35 inferiority without any evidence whilst complaining if anyone states the rafale is less than perfect- really grips my sh*t.
 
xxxx
 
I did note with interest that allegedly the FAA rejected the Rafale out of hand as a Harrier replacement as it had an inferior strike capability, i can only imagine this is (or was) a weapons integration issue. (beedals article so no real evidence).
 
The F18 was considered as was a navalised Typhoon - which a friend at Bae informs me is kept on the back burner in case jsf falls through. I have to say i do not believe Bae when it comes to a navalised typhoon - i do not believe it will be as simple as they appear to claim or as cheap.(they do have a rep for being economical with the truth on defence contracts).
 
Personally if jsf falls through id vote for f18s off the carriers and perhaps new build harrier for the raf.
 
 
 
 
 
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lolek       8/2/2009 12:07:23 PM
I was able to read first 30 pages of this topic,but I gave up before I have finished all 39 pages. I have a question, do you really think that you have to have Spectra,ALQ-165,AESA and all of this sophisticated stuff to bomb talibans?  99% of last 15 years military actions is against enemies which are usually without any chances and nobody expects war with China or Russia.  You were talking for 20 pages about MICA vs AMRAAM, but for example in Cosovo I don't think that any Fulcrum was destroyed from more than 30km so what's the point of the disscusion if MICA's range is 50 or 80km? You were talking about no exports for Rafale, but I think you forgot that choosing a fighter is 90% political decision. It was obvious that for example South Corea would choose american bird, because they got aircraft which was good enough for them and the best possible political benefits. It is quite pointless to disscuss F-22 vs Rafale because for 99,9%  if they would ever meet on battlefield they would be on the same side.You won't be able to compare any 2 planes as long as you take under consideration pilot's factor. In Poland during exercises F-16 block 52+ is facing Mig-29 Fulcrum (version 9-12) and although on paper the Fulcrum should be without any chances it appears that in real live it is quite equal fight and it's  funny, but the biggest dream of  Mig's pilots is to get SMT version of it. I think it's bullshit that Rafale is "pedestrian bomb truck" and it's quite similar to the Air Power Australia propaganda about F-35 or SH and also I think that the statement that Rafale is "the best dogfighter in the world" is a bullshit as well . It's quite safe to say that Typhoon, Rafale and SH are capable of doing all missions required by today's battlefield and their performance against each other would be quite equal in most situations.The fact that Rafale's RCS is 0,2m bigger or smaller of Typhoon's one is quite meaningless to the Mig's 21 pilot from North Korea who won't be able  to detect both of them from more than 10km. By the way, I'm not French, I'm from Poland. Have fun for another 30 pages
 
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warpig       8/2/2009 1:07:11 PM

I was able to read first 30 pages of this topic,but I gave up before I have finished all 39 pages. I have a question, do you really think that you have to have Spectra,ALQ-165,AESA and all of this sophisticated stuff to bomb talibans?  99% of last 15 years military actions is against enemies which are usually without any chances and nobody expects war with China or Russia.  You were talking for 20 pages about MICA vs AMRAAM, but for example in Cosovo I don't think that any Fulcrum was destroyed from more than 30km so what's the point of the disscusion if MICA's range is 50 or 80km? You were talking about no exports for Rafale, but I think you forgot that choosing a fighter is 90% political decision. It was obvious that for example South Corea would choose american bird, because they got aircraft which was good enough for them and the best possible political benefits. It is quite pointless to disscuss F-22 vs Rafale because for 99,9%  if they would ever meet on battlefield they would be on the same side.You won't be able to compare any 2 planes as long as you take under consideration pilot's factor. In Poland during exercises F-16 block 52+ is facing Mig-29 Fulcrum (version 9-12) and although on paper the Fulcrum should be without any chances it appears that in real live it is quite equal fight and it's  funny, but the biggest dream of  Mig's pilots is to get SMT version of it. I think it's bullshit that Rafale is "pedestrian bomb truck" and it's quite similar to the Air Power Australia propaganda about F-35 or SH and also I think that the statement that Rafale is "the best dogfighter in the world" is a bullshit as well . It's quite safe to say that Typhoon, Rafale and SH are capable of doing all missions required by today's battlefield and their performance against each other would be quite equal in most situations.The fact that Rafale's RCS is 0,2m bigger or smaller of Typhoon's one is quite meaningless to the Mig's 21 pilot from North Korea who won't be able  to detect both of them from more than 10km. By the way, I'm not French, I'm from Poland. Have fun for another 30 pages

 
I can understand the general tone of your comment, but how about while we consider whether we need our latest jets, you consider if Poland really needs F-16s or MiG-29s?  We're all NATO now, and after all nobody expects war with Russia, so why should Poland waste money on an air force at all?  Who are you going to fight with it?


 
 
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Herald12345    We shall do that thing.   8/2/2009 1:16:33 PM

I was able to read first 30 pages of this topic,but I gave up before I have finished all 39 pages. I have a question, do you really think that you have to have Spectra,ALQ-165,AESA and all of this sophisticated stuff to bomb talibans?  99% of last 15 years military actions is against enemies which are usually without any chances and nobody expects war with China or Russia.  You were talking for 20 pages about MICA vs AMRAAM, but for example in Cosovo I don't think that any Fulcrum was destroyed from more than 30km so what's the point of the disscusion if MICA's range is 50 or 80km? You were talking about no exports for Rafale, but I think you forgot that choosing a fighter is 90% political decision. It was obvious that for example South Corea would choose american bird, because they got aircraft which was good enough for them and the best possible political benefits. It is quite pointless to disscuss F-22 vs Rafale because for 99,9%  if they would ever meet on battlefield they would be on the same side.You won't be able to compare any 2 planes as long as you take under consideration pilot's factor. In Poland during exercises F-16 block 52+ is facing Mig-29 Fulcrum (version 9-12) and although on paper the Fulcrum should be without any chances it appears that in real live it is quite equal fight and it's  funny, but the biggest dream of  Mig's pilots is to get SMT version of it. I think it's bullshit that Rafale is "pedestrian bomb truck" and it's quite similar to the Air Power Australia propaganda about F-35 or SH and also I think that the statement that Rafale is "the best dogfighter in the world" is a bullshit as well . It's quite safe to say that Typhoon, Rafale and SH are capable of doing all missions required by today's battlefield and their performance against each other would be quite equal in most situations.The fact that Rafale's RCS is 0,2m bigger or smaller of Typhoon's one is quite meaningless to the Mig's 21 pilot from North Korea who won't be able  to detect both of them from more than 10km. By the way, I'm not French, I'm from Poland. Have fun for another 30 pages
Incidentally, the Fulcrum's chief defect is that it falls apart, not that it can't get the job done. One more thing: if you are a bomb truck, then you  are expected to enter any of the late model Russian radar and SAM IADS networks and exploit its seams. If your aircraft  can't do that, then you murder pilots. Guess what the Rafale can't do without expensive and scarce French standoff weapons and MASSIVE ASSISTANCE from allied aircraft like Typhoon and Gripen and yes the F-series jets from the US?

By the way, good luck with ASTER! You'll need it.
 
Herald
 
 
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Reactive    But   8/2/2009 1:39:23 PM
The reason these threads are so long is purely that people here refuse to let a bunch of ignorant french people post fake propoganda about their favourite plane.
 
I think people feel compelled to reply to this becuase otherwise It just ends up with Bluewings beating off post after post with lies, propoganda, and total ignorance.
 
I think it is a credit to this forum that people go out of their way to spend time correcting these r-tards and producing weighted arguments that will in the days and months ahead provide people with a more balanaced, less teenage mastabatory perspective here.
 
Remember, the french are able to take credit for the liberation of Paris and France without mentioning the US or American troops that actually did 99 percent of the work, they are able to delude themselves that they as a nation  exemplified the tradition of defiance, no nation demonstrates such a propensity to live in a self-made dream world that ignores all observable reality. If Germany put such a spin on history there would be a worldwide outcry.

And that's why this post is so long..  By the way, I hope I don't give the impression that I find the french people here objectionable, many contradict the idiot and it is to their credit.
 
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Das Kardinal       8/3/2009 12:53:23 AM


Incidentally, the Fulcrum's chief defect is that it falls apart, not that it can't get the job done. One more thing: if you are a bomb truck, then you  are expected to enter any of the late model Russian radar and SAM IADS networks and exploit its seams. If your aircraft  can't do that, then you murder pilots. Guess what the Rafale can't do without expensive and scarce French standoff weapons and MASSIVE ASSISTANCE from allied aircraft like Typhoon and Gripen and yes the F-series jets from the US?




By the way, good luck with ASTER! You'll need it.

 

Herald 




Hmm... I think you're being a bit carried away there. First, what proof do you have that Rafale can't "thread its way into a latest model Russian IADS" ? Of course it didn't, but then who did ? The closest such experience was over Serbia, and even though they were arguably more competent than the Iraqi, Serbia was still a small and relatively impoverished country. And Rafale wasn't operational back then.
F22 and F35 are supposed to have that capability, although it hasn't been demonstrated in "real" operations (or did I miss the USA vs China war ?). Not that I don't believe the F22 couldn't, but it is in a class of its own. It has its limits as well. Dropping JDAMs is good, but can it launch cruise or anti-ship missiles ? No it can't. Rafale can... Does that make the latter superior to the former ? I suppose not, for a nation that can afford to have F22 and all the rest (thousands of Teen-series, a dozen carrier groups with SHs, etc).
And the F35 is not operational yet, AFAIK. It's not a paper plane like the PAK-FA, but it still has to prove itself... against the kind of IADS you're speaking about, otherwise it's all speculation, interpreted exercise results, and manufacturer's claims, don't you agree ? Is the F22 even battle-tested or did it achieve all its "kills" in simulated engagements ? I know, I'm being snarky here. 
As for "relying on expensive stand-off weapons"... isn't it what everyone's doing nowadays ? The "expensive" part is mostly from being French built and bought in small series compared to the American hardware, but then even a JDAM or Paveway costs a little mre than a dumb Mk 82... what are you trying to imply here ? That Rafales should somehow, in the hypothesis of a "big war" (in the NATO vs Warsaw Pact style) attack by overflying its target and dropping iron bombs on it ? Then why isn't it the advertised tactic for F22s and F35s, then ? Less macho ? http://www.strategypage.com/Images/face22.gif" alt="" />
Oh well, I guess, from the Red Flag-related article, that USAF operators were impressed by a "pedestrian bomb-truck".
 
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