The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - November 25, 2009




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-)

The F-22
h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I

The Rafale :
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news

Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow .

Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50   NEXT
Herald12345    Incompetence   8/5/2009 2:48:07 AM

It goes directly to wrong choices which has been a continuous theme I have about most technological incompetence..
 

Until the end of the Cold War, French have tended to use their own standards which are close to NATO but not exactly the same. See the 68mm rockets, the weird twist of the 5.56 FAMAS rifle... This allowed them to make loads of money because their customers could not easily integrate NATO weapons and had to buy French ones.

 

That's not technical incompetence, it's commercial ingenuity at its best.

 

Of course, after the end of the Cold War, everyone started to buy US stuff and that strategy has backfired quite a bit (even at home, they can't find a commercial ammo supply that works ok in their assault rifle...).

 

 

In the case of the Rafale, radar is angled as well

It is the whole front part of the radar which is angled

You can see the reard attachment and angles , plus inclination of surface on the top

However angle is lower than in former US AESA display which means that optimisation is different.

After all Rafale is optimised for low altitude penetration.
 

Correst. ESA radar angle is a trade off between ground and air mode (e.g. the B-1 array is angled downard).

So that a SAM radar can look directly at it in passive mode and hunt for sidelobe noise.


Chuckles de Gaule, Laugh it ups, and the Squall. Three major projects, three failures..
And what do they all have in common? WRONG SOLUTIONS and incompetent execution at the system level.
 
Not even economic sense did they make after you run the numbers. Italy gets more bang for the Euro.
 
Herald

 

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       8/5/2009 3:07:17 AM




fs > As a gift for our US readers

Some interesting confirmation in a public NATO document of what I have explained before:

etc......

gf > as you would know, that is an extremely dumbed down articulation of RCS management opportunity and principles.....  there are no longer 4 basic principles for RCS management. - and in real terms that hasn't been so for nearly a generation.  I can only suggest that the above is intended for a very very basic delivery of first order principles 


just noticed the dates on that doc, so I guess my comments are self evident....




 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       8/5/2009 4:49:41 AM

The APG-77s array is angled? That's news to me! Thought the APG-79 was the first one with an angled array, followed by the -81.

Yes, it is angled.  Even without a shot of the array itself, it is obvious from the way the radome meets the fuselage:
 
 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       8/5/2009 4:53:22 AM
How about "as a gift for our US readers" everyone just stop replying to that idiot?
 
Quote    Reply

MK       8/5/2009 7:28:08 AM



The APG-77s array is angled? That's news to me! Thought the APG-79 was the first one with an angled array, followed by the -81.



Yes, it is angled.  Even without a shot of the array itself, it is obvious from the way the radome meets the fuselage:

 

Thanks. Just remembered the image Herald showed as well and the antenna didn't look angled on that image. The first image showing an AESA onboard the test bed aircraft didn't look like the F-22s array, the second one does if you just take into account the F-22s nose shape. But it might be an image perspective related issue.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    That was a test stand.   8/5/2009 8:12:57 AM







The APG-77s array is angled? That's news to me! Thought the APG-79 was the first one with an angled array, followed by the -81.







Yes, it is angled.  Even without a shot of the array itself, it is obvious from the way the radome meets the fuselage:



 





Thanks. Just remembered the image Herald showed as well and the antenna didn't look angled on that image. The first image showing an AESA onboard the test bed aircraft didn't look like the F-22s array, the second one does if you just take into account the F-22s nose shape. But it might be an image perspective related issue.

inside a test chamber.
 
Quote    Reply

french stratege       8/5/2009 9:59:58 AM

s > As a gift for our US readers


Some interesting confirmation in a public NATO document of what I have explained before:

etc......



gf > as you would know, that is an extremely dumbed down articulation of RCS management opportunity and principles.....  there are no longer 4 basic principles for RCS management. - and in real terms that hasn't been so for nearly a generation.  I can only suggest that the above is intended for a very very basic delivery of first order principles 
 
And I agree with you.It is old document on basic principles.However it has become a public document published on NATO site and probably the first one where active cancellation is mentioned.
Nothing new for specialists of informed engineers but it bring an official confirmation to some SP amateurs who doubt it and though it was only a rumor.
If you check routinely internet you would notice that much more information is now publicly available on stealth and for a simple reason.
Chineses or Iranians (and others) have published openly some scientific documents on stealth management from various research institutes which show that hiding some old information is not any longer relevant.They know how to calculate and simulate numerically an RCS and have shown they can do basic things on signature management.Which does not means of course that they are at the same level of USA or France or UK.
An interesting document on Lampiridae stealth management
 
PS: for Herald
If there is a nation which manage very well system level management outside USA, it is France.
Our M51 work, our Triomphant class work ,and Rafale has well.In initial budget minus few percent more or less, in time,  and with predicted performance.Russians could learn something! LOL.
To think that we would not have thought about radar antenna proper angle effect on Rafale RCS is absolutely of the highest stupidity from you .Especially from french engineers who know very well math and physic when they come from first rate school like Polytechnique or Centrale.
We maybe have smaller R&D budget than USA but we are not stupid and ignorant.
 
Quote    Reply

FJV    Still a wierd topic though.   8/5/2009 3:48:05 PM
Strange how such obvious things are not an issue among an "indepth" stealth discussion until they get mentioned.
 
- If the Rafale doesn't fly that high then angling the radar up is indeed not as beneficial as it would be for the F22.
- As for active radar cancellation. I suspect that for some frequencies the electronics may not be fast enough to do
  that.
- And if you slice a cilinder at an angle you get a elliptical form, which is what Herald was hinting at,
 
What also suprises me that I've seen no-one considering whether having 2 engines on top of each other might have stealth benefits:
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Lightning"
A unique way of minimising the drag of the twin engine installation was put forward by Petter. This involved stacking the engines vertically (staggered to avoid too much weight aft, with the lower engine forward of the upper), effectively tucking them behind the cockpit, fed from the nose and achieving minimum frontal area. This effectively gave twice the thrust of its contemporaries for an increase in frontal area of only 50%.
 
Using such an approach might make a stealth fighter with a smaller frontal area compared to a stealth fighter with the engines side by side. (given equal front area neede for inboard storage of weapons).
It's also good for supercruise.
Maybe it's even possible to reduce (near) vertical tail surfaces, if you use thrust vectoring for the lower engine, due to the an arm for a momentum to work on. (you vector the lower jet nozzle from left to right instead of up and down)

This is still the non-expert talking here.
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

VelocityVector    FJV   8/5/2009 4:18:07 PM

With over and under you complicate ductwork, tail and side aspect stealth, and internal space arrangements.  If you reduce beam somehow, doesn't that likely reduce the volume of your main bays?  I am a Lightning fan, too.  0.02

v^2

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       8/5/2009 5:24:52 PM


And I agree with you.It is old document on basic principles.However it has become a public document published on NATO site and probably the first one where active cancellation is mentioned.

not so sure I'd drill it down so finely to the issue of people not accepting active cancellation.  the issue has been the degree and capability of an active cancellation capability (and I'll use Rafale as the trigger for this as its the one that has been oft used as the example on both sides)

it requires sufficient on board power
it requires a basicly clean emissions sanitised  platform otherwise it creates a nightmare for numbr crunching (signature emission is all aspect. so the dirtier the platform the harder it will be to manage its emissions).  there is no such thing as a "front on RCS" as flight, no matter how unruffled the air space, no matter how clean the flight management systems etc... are, will always involve a shift away from perfect linear transit when going from A to B.

again, aerodynamics and fluid dynamics are kissing cousins, active cancellation issues are similar for both, granted there are differences in propogation, absolute distance, absolute speed of signature "transmission" etc...  but tyhe core principles are similar.

unless you're flying a perfectly conformed sphere (and not many  spheres are not perfectly formed) - you will get signal variances.  anything that is not symetrical (and that means dirtied up with weapons, refueling probes, external sensors, pitots, irregular control surface housings etc....  will be harder for any active process to manage and manipulate the degree of its presence.

you just can't "bolt on" active cancellation.  the platform has to have inherent signature sympathy in the first place.  dirty airframes are not sympathetic.  when they're not they then become a flying transducer.
it requires evidence of all aspect sensor distribution
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       8/5/2009 5:45:58 PM




s > As a gift for our US readers
Yawn.





Some interesting confirmation in a public NATO document of what I have explained before:
Yawn.


etc......








gf > as you would know, that is an extremely dumbed down articulation of RCS management opportunity and principles.....  there are no longer 4 basic principles for RCS management. - and in real terms that hasn't been so for nearly a generation.  I can only suggest that the above is intended for a very very basic delivery of first order principles 
For familiarization in the days when civilians were just beginning to learn about LO from the Furst Gulf war and Kosovo.
 

And I agree with you.It is old document on basic principles.However it has become a public document published on NATO site and probably the first one where active cancellation is mentioned.

As an option but not as a working option. We also mention biplanes in aeronautucs but aside from Stearmans and other stunt planes do you see any serious applications?
 
Nothing new for specialists of informed engineers but it bring an official confirmation to some SP amateurs who doubt it and though it was only a rumor.

Amateurs..........yeah, they would get excited over and use this as a claim. Now who do we see around hgere doing that nonsense? Oh yeah.

If you check routinely internet you would notice that much more information is now publicly available on stealth and for a simple reason.
 
Its because people who were bombed or expect to be bombed started investigating it and started sharing notes. 

Chineses or Iranians (and others) have published openly some scientific documents on stealth management from various research institutes which show that hiding some old information is not any longer relevant.They know how to calculate and simulate numerically an RCS and have shown they can do basic things on signature management.Which does not means of course that they are at the same level of USA or France or UK, Germany, Italy, or Russia.

Or even are on the right track. Do you even know how many mistakes the US made?
 
An interesting document on Lampiridae stealth management


 

PS: for Herald

If there is a nation which cannot manage very well system level management outside USA, it is France.
 
Example:
 
Chuckles de Gaulle:
 
-wrong choice of reactors.
-wrong hull form.
-flight deck layout and elevator placement bungled.
-takeoff run miscalculated.
-hullspace for unnecessary and functionally useless SAMS included.
-poor construction quality 
-supply chain of critical components  (screws/propellers) bungled.
-safety factors ignored.
-allied (USN) suggestions to fix the problems when construction was underway ignored.
-Massive cost overruns and delays during program 
-up to now non-mission capable. (Showboat and harbor queen are the derisive terms used)
 
Our M51 work, our Triomphant class work ,and Rafale has well.In initial budget minus few percent more or less, in time,  and with predicted performance.Russians could learn some nothing from France.
 
To think that we would not have thought about radar antenna proper angle effect on Rafale RCS is absolutely of the highest stupidity from you .Especially from french engineers who know very well math and physic when they come from first rate school like Polytechnique or Centrale.

Lookdown as opposed to lookup?
 
We maybe have smaller R&D budget than USA but we are not stupid and ignorant.

CREF Chuckles de Gaulle and previous examples..
 
For the rest of you, some nations do  some things very well. Ballistic rockets and subs, even torpedoes, the French do very well (better than the US in many cases MU90 being an example) . Commercial aviation their products are  pedestrian to terrible(A400M disaster). Likewise combat aircraft (Rafale). Combat ordnance, their A2G ordnance in its latest iteration is fair to excellent depending on type(SCALP being excellent). Their latest  A2A weapons and SAM systems, as long as its not modern MBDA [Matra]), is only just okay (CROTALE and Matra Magic and 530 work aa intended, the rest is junk.). Their latest surface fleet combatant series (Forbin and Lafayette) are jokes (Combat information system integration failures and one hit and they explode and sink design horrors).   
 
The French use a heck of a lot more American technology than they care to admit, because their own stuff doesn't work that well. Their GP bombs for example. (fuses)  American fuses finally do work (only avarage performance here , Russian and British are just better designs) after decades of being the example of the worst fuse technology tree on Earth
Just an example.


Herald
 
Quote    Reply

Blue Apple       8/6/2009 3:22:27 AM
Chuckles de Gaulle:
 
The Charles de Gaulle is an example of political choices screwing up what should have been a fine ship.
 
The politicians refused to fund a new generation of nuclear reactor.
 
Consequence: several nuclear sub engines were used instead. But even then the ship was still underpowered.
 
So the reactors run hotter than in the sub, leading to radiation leaks issues and a need to refuel the cores at an unhealthy rate. But that still wasn't enough. So DCN decided to use a new screw design in order to extract a increase speed by a couple of knots. When the first set was cast, quality control showed that there were too many bubbles and that it might break. A new set was ordered but since there is exactly one company in France that can cast such large items, the delivery delay was >12 months. The navy decided to try using the deffective screws instead for the ship sea trials which led to the rather humiliating scene of the CdG towed back after only a few hours at sea.
 
Second political choice was the constant budget cuts that delayed the construction. A penny-wise, pound-foolish move as the slower workpace was much more expensive in the end, using the budget for two ships while building only one.
 
The only major design change has been the consequence of a decision to operate E2 planes instead of some helo-based AEW (like the UK) which led to the lengthening of the deck by a couple of feet in order to simplify operations (hte ship could operate E2 with the smaller deck but it would have to stop operations for sevral minutes moving planes around, not a very good idea in a warship).
 
As the first of a class and the first nuclear powered carrier built by a country, I tend to think French engineers did a decent job given the consequences of some political choices. It does not have the maturity of US designs but it's still better than most other nations have achieved (most gave up on CATOBAR and Russian carreirs are not exactly impressive).
 
Their GP bombs for example. (fuses) 
 
??? Even license-built mk bombs use French fuzes.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Besodes the lie about the fuses.   8/6/2009 3:37:05 AM

Chuckles de Gaulle:
 

The Charles de Gaulle is an example of political choices screwing up what should have been a fine ship.

 

The politicians refused to fund a new generation of nuclear reactor.

 

Consequence: several nuclear sub engines were used instead. But even then the ship was still underpowered.

 

So the reactors run hotter than in the sub, leading to radiation leaks issues and a need to refuel the cores at an unhealthy rate. But that still wasn't enough. So DCN decided to use a new screw design in order to extract a increase speed by a couple of knots. When the first set was cast, quality control showed that there were too many bubbles and that it might break. A new set was ordered but since there is exactly one company in France that can cast such large items, the delivery delay was >12 months. The navy decided to try using the deffective screws instead for the ship sea trials which led to the rather humiliating scene of the CdG towed back after only a few hours at sea.

 

Second political choice was the constant budget cuts that delayed the construction. A penny-wise, pound-foolish move as the slower workpace was much more expensive in the end, using the budget for two ships while building only one.

 

The only major design change has been the consequence of a decision to operate E2 planes instead of some helo-based AEW (like the UK) which led to the lengthening of the deck by a couple of feet in order to simplify operations (hte ship could operate E2 with the smaller deck but it would have to stop operations for sevral minutes moving planes around, not a very good idea in a warship).
 
As the first of a class and the first nuclear powered carrier built by a country, I tend to think French engineers did a decent job given the consequences of some political choices. It does not have the maturity of US designs but it's still better than most other nations have achieved (most gave up on CATOBAR and Russian carreirs are not exactly impressive).

 

Their GP bombs for example. (fuses) 

 

??? Even license-built mk bombs use French fuzes.


Technical choices, amateur. TECHNICAL choices., Never mind how they politically happened. They happened and your engineers despite US warnings and advice, executed those choices. YOU concede this.
 
TECHNICAL incompetence has no excise. As LockMart now discovers in the US from some of its "political" choices.
 
Herald.
 
 
Quote    Reply

Blue Apple       8/6/2009 5:13:35 AM
Besides the lie about the fuses.
 
If it's a lie, then tell us what fuze French bombs use now (2009) and how it is US-based. Be specific, please.
 
Quote    Reply

Das Kardinal       8/6/2009 5:44:35 AM
Might be a licensed American design built in France. <shrugs> As long as they work, no sense wasting money reinventing something as basic as bomb fuses I suppose. 
As to the CdG the politians and union leaders who guided the poor technical choices should be keelhauled, but that's in my dreams.
At least she does her job. The really dramatic thing was not building the second carrier, incorporating the lessons learnt. So now we have a prototype that, sure, has operational value, but seems a bit temperamental, and maaayyyyybe we'll get a second carrier, but built much later, on a totally different design that may not even be much better. The joy. When you think that the total cost of building a carrier amounts to a minuscule part of the bloated and ineffective Public Education's yearly budget.

 
Quote    Reply
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy