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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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FJV    Am I getting this correctly?   7/25/2009 1:22:53 PM
So we have an entire plane consisting of right angles, corners and crevices working as radar reflectors, but we worry about the RCS influence of the refuelling probe?
 
Uuuhhhmmmmm........................................
 
Nope, not getting it.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Beazz       7/25/2009 3:01:22 PM
Blue Apple       7/25/2009 10:28:52 AM
Beazz
 
F22 easily has twice the power of the Rafail and not even close to maxing out like the Rafail already is. EVERY F22 right now has 2 CIPs in it, not on some test bird somewhere,  and has the space already available for a 3rd if need be. Each CIP has the capacity to run 2000 MIPS if need be, unlike the Rafails 1000 and like I said, it has 2 CIPS in them all right now which means without any upgrades whatsoever they can bump it up to 4000 MIPS if need be!! Then if they wish they can stick the 3rd CIP in it and bump it up to 6000 MIPS if they wish. The Rafail is not even in this league. 
 
Get real, fanboy. Only an idiot would compare a system MIPS and claim superiority with such difference. There are so many way to cheat with these numbers (e.g. do the F-22 number count the redundant processing power of not? Does it simply make a frequency x operations per second or is it sustained achievable rate?) that you can't compare them except if they differ by more than one order of magnitude.
You're as big an idiot as BW and most likely ARE him. The Rafael has a MIPS and so does the F22. Rafails is NOT even close to what the F22's is. Now if you wish to try and convalute that into somehow the F22 is *cheating* with it's numbers while of course the Rafail is spot on, then like I said, you are an idot of magnitude over BW. In all measures of computing power the F22 makes the Rafail look like a 1990s era computer as compared to a modern day machine. If you don't like that. To bad punk. I should have known some French clown would come to the conclusion the F22 is *cheating* with it's computing power while the mighty Rafail is telling us all up front just exactly what is has and of course no *cheating* with it lol Here's a news flash for you fanboy, the US does not care what the French think of it's computing power and havew no need to lie/cheat with it. That's why it's openly available for anyone with the urge to go looking for it, while the French hide anything to do with theirs. IOW, the French do care because they know it is an underpowered piece of junk from a computing standpoint and they would prefer any potential customers not know it. Now go back to sleep Blue Wings!!!
 
Beazz
 
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Rufus       7/25/2009 4:38:12 PM
"Or you simply realize that the unlike in the F-35 or F-22, the RCS contribution of the probe on the Rafale is not high enough to matter (because the main body & missile RCS is much higher)."
 
EXACTLY!
 
That is the whole point! 
 
The Rafale is not a stealth aircraft. That is why it can have a fixed refueling probe.  On a Rafale such a probe just doesn't make a bit of difference because the aircraft as a whole has a sufficiently large RCS that the probe's contribution is tiny.
 
Bluewings and various other fanboys continually insist that the Rafale is "discrete" and post picture after picture trying to "prove" the Rafale was designed with LO considerations in mind.  My only point in bringing up that refueling probe is to point out that a stealthy aircraft would never use such a probe.  (Nor would it have a vertical tail, etc etc)
 
The Rafale is a 4th generation aircraft with some minimal RCS reduction work.  It is similar to the EF and Gripen, better than the F-15 or any Russian aircraft, and somewhat worse than the Super Hornet in that regard.
 
"Then you compare the performance impact of fitting a fixed probe vs the potential reliability issue of a retractable one. Once that choice is made, perhaps it then makes sense to manufacture fixed probes with as low as possible RCS?"
 
I am all for eliminating needless complexity... but a retractable refueling probe is just no big deal.  If you can make a modern fighter aircraft that won't fall to pieces in the air then a retractable refueling probe is a piece of cake.  
 
The main reason the Rafale uses a fixed one is as you mentioned above.   There is just not much reason not to.  A single missile, targetting pod, drop tank or even an empty pylon will likely have a greater RCS than that probe.  Making the probe retractable wouldn't help the overall RCS in any appreciable way.
 
 
 
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Herald12345    hmmmm.   7/25/2009 5:07:52 PM



Beazz


 

F22 easily has twice the power of the Rafail and not even close to maxing out like the Rafail already is. EVERY F22 right now has 2 CIPs in it, not on some test bird somewhere,  and has the space already available for a 3rd if need be. Each CIP has the capacity to run 2000 MIPS if need be, unlike the Rafails 1000 and like I said, it has 2 CIPS in them all right now which means without any upgrades whatsoever they can bump it up to 4000 MIPS if need be!! Then if they wish they can stick the 3rd CIP in it and bump it up to 6000 MIPS if they wish. The Rafail is not even in this league. 


 

Get real, fanboy. Only an idiot would compare a system MIPS and claim superiority with such difference. There are so many way to cheat with these numbers (e.g. do the F-22 number count the redundant processing power of not? Does it simply make a frequency x operations per second or is it sustained achievable rate?) that you can't compare them except if they differ by more than one order of magnitude.


 

Herald:

 


No you didn't. You made a claim of what I said and not what I said

 

I quoted your exact words. So what's your excuse? Alzeihmer perhaps? Drugs?

You did not understand what I said. You interpreted it to mean what you thought it said and you LIED.
 

You were and are deceptive. Its masked by the strakes and fins and buried exactly as I said.


 

No, you simply don't know what an antenna looks like.


Yes I do, incompetent........
 
 
 



 




 

AMRAAM

 

 

 

.


 

MICA

 

Same place, same function


(bonus point if you understand why the second MICA "missile" does not have a datalink antenna).


 No its not the same term for term.

 

Of course it is. See an an-topic reference....


 

BTW, nice touch tring to BS your way by associating APN ad IR missile. Except for the little fact that only someone really clueless would associate both as IR missile can't use APN (no range = no acceleration).

 

Did you understand what I just said? And why the terms for an industrial robot and a MISSILE are NOT the same?


 

The equations are the same. The terms are the same. Missile end games are very simple problems (i.e. single loop, single command) which are very hard to solve in the real world as most of the equation terms are variable throughout the missile trajectory. But that's not excuse for using improper terms or making things up like claiming MICA uses pronav throughout its entire trajectory.


 

Rufus:

 

The whole discussion is absurd.  You don't try to reduce the RCS of a refueling probe, you simply make it retractable. 


 

Or yo
 
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Herald12345    hmmmm.   7/25/2009 5:13:14 PM
Your Swedish paper also duplicates what I said here about introducing additional terms for the additional variables so that claim you made of equivalence of industrial robot arm control  to missile or one missile guidance to another as well is a lie.,
 
Nice doing business to you, guy.
 
Herald
 
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Bluewings12       7/26/2009 5:29:04 PM
I don 't know where to start . I 've just read so many outright lies and so much incomprehension (ignorance) that my post can only be incomplete .
 
First and foremost : readers should once for all admit the fact that the Rafale is indeed a "discrete" aircraft . Its RCS is smaller than other 4th or 4.5th Gen aircraft . Since 1999 , Dassault said that its RCS is 10 times smaller than the M2000 ' RCS . This is well documented and I am not going to dig out 10 years old posts and studies . The M2000 has the smallest RCS of the 4th Gen fighters (Fulcrum , SU , Viper , Eagle , F-18 , Mig-21 Bison , etc) and is quoted at around 1.5m Square (clean) . ie : The SU-27 and the Eagle F-15C 's RCSs are 18 times bigger (22-25m Square) .
 
So , Rafale 's RCS clean is around 0.1-0.15m Square . As a comparaison , the F-16 is given for 3m Square (clean) which is already twice higher than the M2000 and 25 to 30 times higher than Rafale . Do the maths by yourselves if you want to check my numbers .
We already talked hundred times of what that means about radar detection , even against the powerfull Russian radars , a Rafale loaded as an Interceptor (6 or 8 Micas plus a central fuel tank) will detect most threats first with its "myopic" (?) Pesa RBE2 . With the new AESA , the edge range is even greater .
 
Once again , nobody ever said that the Rafale 's RCS was in order of the US stealth aircraft but most posters tend to forget the "Physics" like RCS vs Radar . 
***********
gf about the refueling probe said wrongly and with an obvious bias that :
""it's irrelevant whether its coated or not""
 
I proved that the Rafale 's refueling probe was RAM coated (I 've been asked for) , so suddently it doesn 't make any difference ??? What kind of bias and BS is this ??? Listen to me gf , you are wrong , you know it but to admit it is beyond your Ego . Fair enough , I 've got nothing to do with you anymore , bye . 
***********
Rufus is having the same bias attitude and he 's trying very hard to forget what he already knows about the Rafale to post BS . Poor him ...
Rufus , I am correct about sensor fusion while you are unable to provide anything but bla-blas . Post some relevant stuff and argue your case for God sake ! Is it up to me to post how the sensor fusion systems of the various US aircraft work ?
I can but this is your job . Educate yourself for cry out loud then we 'll have a much better discussion . The problem you have like some other posters is that you deny what I say without even checking if I am right (or wrong) . You just call me a lyier , a troll , etc , but you don 't want to make the effort to walk your talk . Please , do so :-)
 
Also , not all 4.5 Gen fighters are equals , far from it in fact . You said :
""They all operate the same way fanboy.  That is the whole point.  The Rafale doesn't do anything differently from any other 4th generation fighter""
 
The fanboy is telling you that you are wrong , period . More to the point , I can prove it and I already have in many occasions . Let 's talk about known facts only , I mean what has been talked about on official Websites , the stuff everybody can check as it is only one click away , ok ? (just few facts) :
 
-1) Which 4 or 4.5 Gen Fighter has an ECM/ECCM suite capable to interferrometry precise to one degree in 2D and imbedded AESA antennas ? Response : Rafale only .
-2) Which 4 or 4.5 Gen Fighter has a powerfull built-in ELINT/EM Recco capability ? Response : Rafale only .
-3) Which 4 or 4.5 Gen Fighter can fire passively an IR missile at 35-40km with total unpunity ? Response : Rafale only .
-4) Which 4 or 4.5 Gen Fighter can engage 6 different ground targets with AASM simultaneously at almost stand-off range with total inpunity ? Response : Rafale only .
-5) Which 4 or 4.5 Gen Fighter can precisely jam one or multiple adverse emitter(s) without waking up every other EM listening suite around ? Response : Rafale only .
 
Do you want me to keep going Rufus ? So yes the Rafale is doing things very differently than any other 4 or 4.5 Gen aircraft . It is up to you to prove us that some other Fighters can also do it , I did my work and we 're waiting for yours . 
 
""If the Rafale is "discrete" then so is every other late 4t
 
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Bluewings12       7/26/2009 5:50:05 PM
I said :
 
""In fact , there is nothing the USA can field right now with the capabilities of Rafale .""
 
I stand by it . 
The F-22 can 't act as a striker-bomber and the F-35 is at least 6 to 8 years away .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/26/2009 7:02:34 PM
Since very few of you know where and what are the different components of Rafale , a picture to help you :
 
 

(if you need the full size picture , just ask)
 
Rafale ' IR signature and air compressions seen from under :
 
 
 
Usefull to hide from SAM sites , as I said before .
 
Cheers . 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
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Bluewings12       7/26/2009 7:44:24 PM
I already posted this excellent video :
 
h*tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXLLBHUhbWg&hl=fr
 
It is all in English . It is marketing purposes but it shows what 3 Rafales F3s can do with the right load .
The only missing hardware not operational yet it the HMS , the rest is spot on with the actual capabilities .
Notice the sensor fusion and the ECM suite warnings ...
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/26/2009 8:34:57 PM
Excuse me to insist but there is something very interesting in the video I posted .
 
Look closely at what happens at 5:30 and after . The ECM suite is getting something .
Unlike any other actual operational ECM suite who would scream "Hostile signal detected !" , Spectra is showing the Pilot what is the thread and its position : "There is a Mig-29 THERE" . At 5:35 , the video shows the Mig on the main battle display ALREADY within the Mica NOZ and the Pilot fire straight away an IR Mica and it is game over . What the Pilot did is simple : lase-shoot .
I remind people that the Rafale did have its radar off and only relied on Spectra+OSF .
To Rufus , which 4 or 4.5 operational Fighter can do that ? Response : Rafale only .
Any other Fighter is going to try to know where the radar signal is coming from then light-up its radar to get a lock and a firing solution ...
 
Cheers .
 
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