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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-) The F-22 h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I The Rafale : h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow . Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 8:32:39 PM
I see that you prefer (again) to shoot at the messenger rather than discuss interesting points like sensor fusion and how 4.5 and 5th gen aircraft have the edge .
Of course , that means that you would have to search and find good material to bring forward . You can !
Let 's forget the trolls and come back to this :
 


This drawing is telling us much about how things are done . The F-22 and the F-35 systems work the same way , more or less . The Typhoon and Gripen are a notch under . Myself , I believe the Gripen to have a small edge over the Typhoon in sensor fusion but that 's me .
 
Of course , for this kind of stuff to work , you need all the devices along the chain to work with each other . Then you need different computers to digest the huge amount of infos and present to the different systems and to the pilot a clear picture on what is going on around the aircraft . Then , you need to have some highly automated functions like the Autopilot (which has to be linked to the ECM/ECCM suite) , the FCS , etc , to allow the aircraft or/and the Pilot to take the appropriate mesures to avoid the threat , escape the threat or engage the threat . It is a big business ...
 
Rafale is very good at it . The "discrete" sticker is not only about passive stealth , far from it . The Rafale is not stealthy enough to do what it does without a powerfull sensor and ECM suite . Simple .
In this regard , it is more advanced than any other European air platform .
What is important is to bring the aircraft and the crew back , it is sometimes more important than to destroy the target . We sometimes abort ...
The Rafale is a very good "survival" , don 't make mistake .
Some are dismissing or downgrading the US detection capabilities when they bash the Rafale 's capabilities during RedFlag 2008 . The airspace area is a big as Switzerland (which is rather small regarding radar range) but the Rafale was able to do exactly what I said without any losses and half of the landscape at RedFlag is not the Alps ! 
In the Alps , a Rafale is almost undetectable !
 
What I find beautifull on the Rafale is that the Pilot and/or the autopilot can do what they want within a 200km bubble because they know what is going on inside the bubble . This is very important when you have to fly deep into enemy territory , too far to stay under the AWACs umbrella .
A F-22 , a F-35 could also go alone deep inside enemy territory but a SU-30 , a SH , a F-16 Blk42 , a Strike-Eagle surely couln 't . A Gripen could use a similar flight plan than the Rafale (low and fast) but without the EM awareness , the Typhoon is still an unknown quantity .
 
The Rafale is not a pedestrian bomb truck ...
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 8:38:49 PM
Herald , repost the entire stuff without your useless quotes and let 's see which way it is going , lol !
The fact is that the Rafale (as I keep saying) impressed the gallery .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 8:49:06 PM
Read my lips Herald then put a finger up your *** :
 
The actual Rafale F3 beats hands down any F-teen in A2A and A2G .
In fact , there is nothing the USA can field right now with the capabilities of Rafale .
The F-22 is and still an interceptor and the F-35 a problem child prototype .
 
I know you don 't like it , but I , I do . lol !
 
Cheers .
 
 
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Herald12345    It tells me just how far behind the French actually are avionics wise if this us the crap planform they use..    7/24/2009 9:01:43 PM

I see that you prefer (again) to shoot at the messenger rather than discuss interesting points like sensor fusion and how 4.5 and 5th gen aircraft have the edge .


By quoting a French pilot general to prove that you are a liar?

Of course , that means that you would have to search and find good material to bring forward . You can !

I usually do but its a waste of time because its way over your head.
 
Let 's forget the truth and come back to this :



Primitive-unbelievably primitive diagram.

This drawing is telling us much about how things are done . The F-22 and the F-35 systems work the same way , more or less . The Typhoon and Gripen are a notch under . Myself , I believe the Gripen to have a small edge over the Typhoon in sensor fusion but that 's me .

It also tells you nothing about how things are done. At best its a simplified display menu tree for a Rafale fighter, and a badly designed one.
 
Of course , for this kind of stuff to work , you need all the devices along the chain to work with each other . Then you need different computers to digest the huge amount of infos and present to the different systems and to the pilot a clear picture on what is going on around the aircraft . Then , you need to have some highly automated functions like the Autopilot (which has to be linked to the ECM/ECCM suite) , the FCS , etc , to allow the aircraft or/and the Pilot to take the appropriate mesures to avoid the threat , escape the threat or engage the threat . It is a big business ...

Gibberish. And in fact you don't link the autopilot to the ECM/ECCM suit. The autpilot belongs to the navigation tree of systems you incompetent. You can't even read your own simplified diagram?.
 
Rafale is very good at it . The "discrete" sticker is not only about passive stealth , far from it . The Rafale is not stealthy enough to do what it does without a powerfull sensor and ECM suite . Simple .
 
Lie. It has to use low level flight  tactics and a lot of electronic help not to be blasted out of the sky. 

In this regard , it is more advanced than any other European air platform .

Not proven by you and disproved by me; so we can consider this statement to be a lie.

What is important is to bring the aircraft and the crew back , it is sometimes more important than to destroy the target . We sometimes abort ...
 
That is cowardice in war: we don't sortie aircraft unless the cost is worth it.

The Rafale is a very good "survival" , don 't make mistake .

Not proven in combat or exercise as the AdA officer admitted. Lets call this a bald assertion-i.e. a lie.
Some are dismissing or downgrading the US detection capabilities when they bash the Rafale 's capabilities during RedFlag 2008 . The airspace area is a big as Switzerland (which is rather small regarding radar range) but the Rafale was able to do exactly what I said without any losses and half of the landscape at RedFlag is not the Alps ! 
 
Not proven. and an assertion. By the citation  I provided where it was tracked by friendlies all the way in,  it is also a bald faced lie.

In the Alps , a Rafale is almost undetectable !

That's a lie.
 
What I find beautiful on the Rafale is that the Pilot and/or the autopilot can do what they want within a 200km bubble because they know what is going on inside the bubble . This is very important when you have to fly deep into enemy territory , too far to stay under the AWACs umbrella .

That's a lie.

A F-22 , a F-35 could also go alone deep inside enemy territory but a SU-30 , a SH , a F-16 Blk42 , a Strike-Eagle sure
 
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gf0012-aust       7/24/2009 9:11:45 PM
The F-22 is and still an interceptor and the F-35 a problem child prototype .

and you woner why people regard you as a troll.  you've demonstrated no awareness of the conditions of LO management - you've demonstrated no awareness that a 4th gen platform with external carriage is immediately dirty, you've demonstrated no awareness of the conditions of DACT (red team, blue team, co-operative engagement, spawning as the event progresses for red team, that the Rafale enter the fight with the assist of  other aircraft running CAP and clearing the alley before strike etc...., you talk about Rafale having systems discretion when a loaded Rafale is as dirty as a B24 Liberator in profile. (that refueling probe makes it stand out like a nun in a nudist colony).  Thats even before you look at the signal trap that exists between the fuselage and the inlets!  I've had to painstakingly point out again and again the issue of how nonconforming body parts will impact on signature return (and this is 3 times over the last 4 years - to which you've only now only just admitted that "you did your research" and accept what has been commonly known (publicly) since 1989.  One look at a Rafale dirty (sans weapons) screams "reflection" and yet "con" weapons its even worse - and yet you claim a discretionary management footprint.  Thats just plain unmitigated rubbish

You've demonstrated no awareness that the S bend inlet on the Rafale is not just about trying to mask signals, but its also about an engine management issue, and finally, when someone tries to point out the obvious radar spike between the fuselage and the inlet (thus making the radar managemnt issue of an S bend almost negligible) -you still persist on making idiotic comments.

you've demonstrated no comprehension about JSF, you've parroted the idiotic comments from APA as proof of life and you've obviosly no understanding of what SPECTRA does (and you've generated fairy stories about signals management, as a defacto LO utility capability of Rafale).

You need to pull your head in - your fan boy adulation and internet triumphalism just serve to reinforce that you're screen scraping in the vain hope of being a one man fan club and maintaining "gloire"... 

posting pictures when you don't understand fundamentals doesn't impress anyone except teenagers and jpg collectors of trivia. 
 
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Herald12345    It tells me just how far behind the French actually are avionics wise if this us the crap planform they use..    7/24/2009 9:12:16 PM

Read my lips Herald then put a finger up your *** :

Got you at last..
 

The actual Rafale F3 beats hands down any F-teen in A2A and A2G .

Lie.
In fact , there is nothing the USA can field right now with the capabilities of Rafale .
Superhornet waxed them. so that's a  lie.
The F-22 is and still an interceptor and the F-35 a problem child prototype .
F-35 exceeds program objectives. That's a lie. 
I know you don 't like it , but I , I do . lol !
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. The truth truimps a lie and a prevaricator  all the time.

GTH.
 

 
 Is it about time for SYSOPS to look at this one to see if he qualifies for discipline? I ask the question as he is definitely out of honesty bounds, here with his falsehoods as well as his lack of good discretion and LEGAL comity .
 
 Highlighted the offensive bit in GREEN
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 9:24:10 PM
I knew that my adversaries would be weak , but not that much . Again it is bla-bla coming from the USA and Oz .
You are not proving anything but just spreading your wrong opinions . You do the talk but where is the walk ?
Links ? Papers ? Studies ? Pictures ?
Do what I do : discuss the facts with proved knowledge and stop trolling .
 
But you got nothing ... 
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 9:54:27 PM
Some clowns said that the Rafale 's refuelling probe was not RAM coated , they should check what BW is saying before to talk BS :
 
 
 
Cheers .
 
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Basilisk Station       7/24/2009 10:17:38 PM

Some clowns said that the Rafale 's refuelling probe was not RAM coated , they should check what BW is saying before to talk BS :

 

 

 

Cheers .

You know that Cheers bit just makes you come across as smug and arrogant. Of course that could be the point.
So explain this to me then. If the F-22's coatings are having trouble with rain, then how does the ram coating on the Raf's refueling probe deal with something like JP5? Quite a number of solvents are based on hydrocarbons like you find in fuel. 
As far as the Rafale's external stores goes, Don't you think the US wouldn't have gone with internal bays on the F-117, B-2, F-22 and F-35 (IE. EVERY true stealth aircraft) without a very good reason? 
 
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Bluewings12       7/24/2009 10:20:52 PM
I can keep doing this all day long . I walk the talk .
 
Now , you tell me what the RCS of this is from the front (I know so be clever) :
 
 
 
Cheers .
 
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