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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-)

The F-22
h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I

The Rafale :
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news

Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow .

Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       7/31/2009 6:06:23 PM
Pfff ... You people are stubborn . Even when we are on the same track , you want me to be wrong .
Please think about the others , they might get tired of your silly attitude , I mean it .
 
We are all talking the same language here regarding the "interferometry" . I explained roughly what it was and how it could be used , then Herald gave us some more details on the subject and for no reasons started to dislike what I 've said (?) .
Then Rufus came like a mad dog , barking at everything with absolute no knowledge on what was going on (?) .
How should I respond to such evident hate ? Simple , I keep my calm and keep posting relevant stuff .
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       7/31/2009 6:11:38 PM
MK :
""The Gripen has participated in a number of joint exercises, including Red Flag Alaska.""
 
I did not know . Any link please ? :-)
 
Cheers .

 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Go back to ground school.   7/31/2009 6:24:42 PM


I am not a physicist but interferometry is a way (a technique) to analyse (diagnostic) radio (or optical) waves patterns , this allows the origine of the radio (or optical) signal to beknown . Regarding the electronic warfare suites and for the technique to work , extremely sensitive sensors are needed as well as optical and electronical devices and also a good computing power . Better the suite is , better the precision will be .

 

Interferometry is a technique used to measure the angle of arrival of the emissions, in this case radar. Hence it gives the bearing to the emitter, nothing special at all as RWRs are capable of doing so since decades, albeit the DBEM is quite accurate at that.




Basicaly , a good ECM suite will be able to precisely locate the position in 2D of the emitter . The signal is also analysed and memorised for further purposes . Then , the ECM suite can try to precisely jam the emitter if the Fighter is equipped with some kind of active AESA antennas without alarming anyone else around .

 

Many advanced ECM systems use phased arrays and are capable of doing exactly that, while AESA offers advantages here over PESA designs especially when it comes to deal with multiple threats.


















""Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class.""



 



At last ... But then , you go :






""Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exchange ratio""





Both statements doesn't contradict each other. Being one of the best doesn't exclude that other types, which belong to the best as well won't achieve a 1:1 ratio.




The Typhoon has a big disadvantage with its mecanical Captor against a 4 aircraft CAP and splitting . It can only see 2 out of the 4 aircraft and can 't keep a "track while scan" on multiple targets . The Gripen is a very small and very well equipped little bast*rd ! It is harder to deal with BVR than the Typhoon . I know that some people will call "BS" but the Gripen has something no other 4.5 generation Fighters has , I let you find out what it is ;-)



If you refer to the 4 aircraft splitting in altitude some flying very low and the others higher it might indeed be a problem for a MSA system, but you usually don't fly alone and Captor is capable of tracking 20+ targets and engaging 6 simultaneously (including McG)  within full azimuth coverage unlike most, if not all other MSA systems.


 


Regarding the Rafale and since the F2 , the aircraft has demonstrated its A2A capabilities in various Joint Excercises like RedFlag , TigerMeet and also in every evaluation it took part :


"""In dogfight exercises, the Rafale outflies F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations, we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon." Col. F.Moussez (CEAM).""






 I wasn't of the impression that the EC 1/7 participated in A2A engagements during Red Flag.




In Europe , the Rafale is seen as the best 4.5 generation A2A and A2G multirole operational aircraft .




Haven't seen any sources outside France to claim that, albeit I'm aware of non french people who think that, but most would bet on the Eurofighter when it comes to A2A. I personally won't make a definite statement on that as there are many unknown variables.




The Typhoon might (?) see combat next year over A-Stan and the Gripen has no combat or joint excercise experience whatsoever . In this regard , the Rafale enjoys a 8 years experience and combat lead (it can also land on a Carrier) .



Bering carrier capable doesn't mean anything to the aircraft's overall performance and capabilities. The Gripen has participated in a number of joint exercises, including Red Flag Alaska. 


 



 



 






 




















 



 


























Interferometry is not to be confused bearing only measurement, with triangulation or baseline interferometry where TWO bearings are taken.
 
Like I said about the  choices. stupid or ignorant are the options. 
 
Herald
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

MK       7/31/2009 6:31:15 PM
The DAS is revolutionary as a threat awareness system.since it uses an electro-optical sensor web to give true 360 degree threat bearing information to a pilot so that all he has to do is look at it instead of fumble for the presentation through a HUD .  
I agree on the DAS, but DAS is not the entire avionics suite and not representive for every single system. The EOTS for example is a Sniper XR based system, the F-135 a redesigned F-119 etc. What I want to say with that is that not all of the systems onboard the F-35 are entirely new and that given the time it will take until the aircraft goes operational with all of that stuff, you might see quite compareable systems onboard existing designs.
And BTW I'm well aware about those public stuff. The point is it was claimed "it is = fact" while it's raw speculation nothing else. I don't say it won't, but also don't say it will if you know/understand what I mean.

Opeval for F-35 is 3 years away. The French will not have their F-3 Rafale before we have our Sparkies IOC the way things are going. In fact 2014 deploy is 5 years away.  

Rafale F3 are already operational. And when it comes to the F-35 I yet wait to see the aircraft officially declared IOC ready. The experience with other recent programmes and the ongoing delays within the F-35 programme

Wingman is uninformed. If you want to support Sampaix, then by all means do so. The YF-23........

 I think you missed the point here.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Go back to ground school.   7/31/2009 6:32:04 PM

Pfff ... You people are stubborn . Even when we are on the same track , you want me to be wrong .


Please think about the others , they might get tired of your silly attitude , I mean it .

 

We are all talking the same language here regarding the "interferometry" . I explained roughly what it was and how it could be used , then Herald gave us some more details on the subject and for no reasons started to dislike what I 've said (?) .


Then Rufus came like a mad dog , barking at everything with absolute no knowledge on what was going on (?) .

How should I respond to such evident hate ? Simple , I keep my calm and keep posting relevant stuff .


 

Cheers .

Lie: if you knew what you were discussing you would have explained HOW IT WORKS-especially the clock requirement. Gibberish is gibberish and you spit it.out in gobs.

Example; if you had any brains, and you knew the class size of an object, you could measure its size against a known size object near it at a range you know and then get a rough range estimate based on size comparison ratios between the two objects. Try to figure that one out when you use LIGHT as the yardstick.  
 
 
 
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Herald12345    Go back to ground school.   7/31/2009 6:50:11 PM

The DAS is revolutionary as a threat awareness system.since it uses an electro-optical sensor web to give true 360 degree threat bearing information to a pilot so that all he has to do is look at it instead of fumble for the presentation through a HUD .  

I agree on the DAS, but DAS is not the entire avionics suite and not representive for every single system. The EOTS for example is a Sniper XR based system, the F-135 a redesigned F-119 etc. What I want to say with that is that not all of the systems onboard the F-35 are entirely new and that given the time it will take until the aircraft goes operational with all of that stuff, you might see quite compareable systems onboard existing designs.
 
No you will not. The engine for example is quite beyond SBECMAs ability to duplicate. Our IR systems are at best a generation AHEAD of yours. As for radar, the French haven't even figured out how to make an AESA that works without US help. Nor can you..
  .
And BTW I'm well aware about those public stuff. The point is it was claimed "it is = fact" while it's raw speculation nothing else. I don't say it won't, but also don't say it will if you know/understand what I mean.

Opeval for F-35 is 3 years away. The French will not have their F-3 Rafale before we have our Sparkies IOC the way things are going. In fact 2014 deploy is 5 years away.  

How many? One?

We have at least five Sparkies in opeval NOW
.
Rafale F3 are already operational. And when it comes to the F-35 I yet wait to see the aircraft officially declared IOC ready. The experience with other recent programmes and the ongoing delays within the F-35 programme

Wingman is uninformed. If you want to support Sampaix, then by all means do so. The YF-23........

 I think you missed the point here.

  I didn't. CREF above. and this:
 
 
The stabilizer is primarily there for CONTROL-even in :LO aircraft.. It is not a radar signal return defeating feature. Its a reflector. To mitigate that defect, the stupid things get a dihedral edge shaping and are canted so as to scatter and redirect the refraction angles of signal return  The Squall shows nothing of the kind.of signal return management for shape and cant, so I know that its a signal return bullboard, just by looking at it..     
 
Herald
 
Quote    Reply

MK       7/31/2009 6:52:16 PM

MK :


""The Gripen has participated in a number of joint exercises, including Red Flag Alaska.""

 

I did not know . Any link please ? :-)

 

Cheers .






It's best to take a look here:
link
 
and here:
link
 
Gripens participated in way to many exercises to post a link to each one respective. But the official website is a good start in the news and publications sections (see links above) you'll find plenty of articles about the Gripens in joint exercises all over Europe and the US.
 

 
Quote    Reply

MK       7/31/2009 7:02:41 PM
No you will not. The engine for example is quite beyond SBECMAs ability to duplicate. Our IR systems are at best a generation AHEAD of yours. As for radar, the French haven't even figured out how to make an AESA that works without US help. Nor can you..
 
Huh? The entire statement makes no sense in relation to my post. BTW I'm neither french, nor was it related to the french here at all. 

How many? One?

No idea how many exactly, but definitely a couple and not just one.
 
I think you missed the point here.



 I didn't. CREF above. and this: 
The stabilizer is primarily there for CONTROL-even in :LO aircraft.. It is not a radar signal return defeating feature. Its a reflector. To mitigate that defect, the stupid things get a dihedral edge shaping and are canted so as to scatter and redirect the refraction angles of signal return  The Squall shows nothing of the kind.of signal return management for shape and cant, so I know that its a signal return bullboard, just by looking at it..   
 
No news here at all and you still seem to miss the point. 
 
BTW at whom is the "go back to ground school" aimed?
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

usajoe1       7/31/2009 7:08:37 PM
The SU-30MK1 and the SU-35 are still unkown quantity as I said few post earlier . We don 't know how good their systems are and their long range missiles are also unkown and unproven .
 
No they are not liar!
 
The SU-30MKI uses the N011M Bars PESA radar, which is the most powerful of its kind. It uses the R-77 BVR-AAM, which along with its powerful radar make it it a very formidable ASF.
 
WVR, the Sukhoi has a HMS and a IRST,and one of the best WVR missiles in the world, the R-73. together they are very deadly.
 
The Sukhoi uses the Israeli Litening Targeting Pod.
 
It also uses Israeli ECM's which are known to be world class.
 
The Sukhoi uses the Russian Al-31FP TVC engines.
 
For A2G, its wing loading is larger than the F-15 and uses every Russian LG/TV/ASM/ARM in inventory. It will soon be able to lunch the AL verison of the BrahMos CM.
 
The Sukoi is a heavy class ASF with western western subsystems. It is about the same class as the upgraded F-15's without the AESA radar, and is the best ASF you can get for less than 50 million $
 
although It does have the worst RCS of any 4.5 gen fighter out there today, and yes BW a Rafale with better trained pilots and AWACS is more deadly than the Sukhoi.
 
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    The BW brigade needs to go back to ground school..   7/31/2009 7:16:45 PM

No you will not. The engine for example is quite beyond SBECMAs ability to duplicate. Our IR systems are at best a generation AHEAD of yours. As for radar, the French haven't even figured out how to make an AESA that works without US help. Nor can you..


 

Huh? The entire statement makes no sense in relation to my post. BTW I'm neither french, nor was it related to the french here at all. 





How many? One?



No idea how many exactly, but definitely a couple and not just one.


 The French Marine received their first one in June this year.; on the 9th I believe. It is opeval only and NOT operational.  


I think you missed the point here.








 I didn't. CREF above. and this: 

The stabilizer is primarily there for CONTROL-even in :LO aircraft.. It is not a radar signal return defeating feature. Its a reflector. To mitigate that defect, the stupid things get a dihedral edge shaping and are canted so as to scatter and redirect the refraction angles of signal return  The Squall shows nothing of the kind.of signal return management for shape and cant, so I know that its a signal return bullboard, just by looking at it..   

 

No news here at all and you still seem to miss the point. 

BTW at whom is the "go back to ground school" aimed?

The fanboys. The title carries over unless you delete it.
 

 
We're passing each other here. Lets get on the same topic to be sure we discuss the same thing.. What were you talking about in statement one if you were not suggesting that foreign aircraft will have comparable systems to the F-35 by series introduction. I know in the specific cases I mention that will not be the case at least for a decade.

And for the jet engine-probably never unless the PRCs steal the tech.
 
Herald
 
 
Quote    Reply

MK       7/31/2009 7:26:00 PM

What were you talking about in statement one if you were not suggesting that foreign aircraft will have comparable systems to the F-35 by series introduction. I know in the specific cases I mention that will not be the case at least for a decade.

Well I indeed meant foreign aircraft might not be behind in all areas (Rufus statement sounded a bit like that), but I didn't explicitely refer to the Rafale here. I base this statement, which is an opinion on the experience of the not to distant past. There were a lot of new technologies envisaged for aircraft like the F-22 for example which found their way into existing designs around the same time the F-22 finally entered service. I personally expect the F-35 to be the most advanced combat aircraft at the time it enters service, albeit I wouldn't bet it will hold an edge in every single area. The combination of all factors is decisive however and not a single factor only.
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       7/31/2009 9:14:31 PM
Herald :
""Lie: if you knew what you were discussing you would have explained HOW IT WORKS""
 
Oh for cry out loud , I was only explaining the basics and I am correct . Stop it !
 
Joe :
""The SU-30MKI uses the N011M Bars PESA radar, which is the most powerful of its kind. It uses the R-77 BVR-AAM, which along with its powerful radar make it it a very formidable ASF.
WVR, the Sukhoi has a HMS and a IRST,and one of the best WVR missiles in the world, the R-73. together they are very deadly.""
 
We know that Joe ...
 
Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

usajoe1    BW   7/31/2009 10:45:12 PM
We know that Joe ...
 
If you know that, then why did you post this?
 
The SU-30MK1 and the SU-35 are still unkown quantity as I said few post earlier . We don 't know how good their systems are and their long range missiles are also unkown and unproven .
 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       8/1/2009 2:10:35 AM

Herald :


""Lie: if you knew what you were discussing you would have explained HOW IT WORKS""

 

Oh for cry out loud , I was only explaining the basics and I am correct . Stop it !

??????????????????????????????
 
What basics? You didn't even know that the information extracted was arc diameter distribution measured against sky and that you needed two such measurements by triangulation to estimate a smear or that such a range estimate based on IR detectors is useless at the ranges we fight since the range gate depth front toi back  is greater than a planetary diameter.


Joe :


""The SU-30MKI uses the N011M Bars PESA radar, which is the most powerful of its kind. It uses the R-77 BVR-AAM, which along with its powerful radar make it it a very formidable ASF.

WVR, the Sukhoi has a HMS and a IRST,and one of the best WVR missiles in the world, the R-73. together they are very deadly.""
 
We know that Joe ...


Cheers .


Joe answered your second lie.(CREF his answer above). I'm satisfied that his answer deals with you appropriately

Herald
 
Quote    Reply

Lynstyne       8/1/2009 2:54:53 AM

I am not a physicist but interferometry is a way (a technique) to analyse (diagnostic) radio (or optical) waves patterns , this allows the origine of the radio (or optical) signal to beknown . Regarding the electronic warfare suites and for the technique to work , extremely sensitive sensors are needed as well as optical and electronical devices and also a good computing power . Better the suite is , better the precision will be .

Basicaly , a good ECM suite will be able to precisely locate the position in 2D of the emitter . The signal is also analysed and memorised for further purposes . Then , the ECM suite can try to precisely jam the emitter if the Fighter is equipped with some kind of active AESA antennas without alarming anyone else around .


As far as I know , the only operation Fighters capable to do so even "clean" are the F-22 and the Rafale .

 

You know bull when you read it, Steve.

 

In simple English as applied to LIGHT, (this includes radio waves): interferometry is the means whereby  the receiver uses  a pair of comparators separated by a known baseline distance. The receiver points at a single emitting light source at an unknown distance away. The receiver takes the common signal from the target and that signal is split and the split signal is routed through the timed interval setup (the known baseline distance separation of the comaprators). The comparators recombine the signal after thus "maze run" and straight run, and a phase interference pattern is analyzed.That will give you a rough idea of how fast the object moves over time as the phase pattern should time change with aspect presentation and distance (if your clocks are accurate enough) as the sugnal moves across the sky. Since we can build two of these rigs with another kinown baseline and use bearing triangulation to get a very rough range we can very roughly estimate that range. Hence two values, speed and range, give us a very rough track. The problem is that IR crest trough wavelength is too imprecise to generate a firing solution over usable time. The phase smear is just too broad for a good crest count in the few seconds that you have and the range; a "blob" almost a sky second of arc across and with a time distance variant of signal that could be up to 1/50th of a light second makes close range gating useless. 1/50th of a light second bu the way is 5994 kilometers. See the problem?  


 

Herald


 




       





Twas I not Steve but Thanks
Bw while i thank you for youre reply - your reply wasnt what i was looking for - possibly i should have phrased the question better.
 
Herald
 
thanks for youre reply  if i understand correctly its using a similar principle to the old doppler nav systems (very broadly) - and rad alt where phase difference is indicataive of a distance.
 
only interfeen is using the input signal only and no aircraft generated comparator circuit..
 
im using avery broad analogy so as to keep this very simple i appreciate its probably a great deal more complicated than that.
 
I recall watching many technical how does it work programs which describe radar as a rubber ball thrown against the wall it bounces off the wall and time taken /speed = distance. a good analogy but wrong radar isnt reflected (and we all use that expression) or bounced its reradiated.

 
 
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