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Subject: 2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale
Bluewings12    6/24/2009 5:03:48 PM
Let 's watch them first :-)

The F-22
h*tp://www.air-attack.com/videos/single/cAhL7lJCk4I

The Rafale :
h*tp://www.dailymotion.com/user/ministeredeladefense/video/x9ma8h_demonstration-du-rafale_news

Both aircrafts are pulling nice stuff . Rafale only does it twice faster . Explaination and details to follow .

Cheers .
 
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Herald12345    The "aviation expert" brigade.   7/30/2009 11:01:13 PM
Wingman is what he is. Not that I can say what he is; because there are rules about that, but those who know me; know what I think about 1%ers.
 
 
Look to the left side of the graph.
 
Herald
 
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Wingman       7/30/2009 11:07:25 PM
12345: Go get help, counceling is cheap, but dont expect to be capable oflerning arout aviation boy...
 

 

 The myth of stealth

link

By any measure, the introduction of stealth into U.S. tactical air-strike forces represents a quantum increase in combat effectiveness and surgical-strike capabilities. However, such unprecedented success as that achieved during the Gulf War brings with it certain dangers. The principal danger is the conviction in the minds of many of this country's decision-makers that stealth renders us invincible. In that regard, stealth is greatly misunderstood by the U.S. taxpayer, and its effectiveness is deliberately overstated by too many government officials—civilian and military—who know better.

The general public should know what stealth really is; but more important, they should know what it is not! To explain what it is not, we must dispel the six myths that surround it:
Stealth is purely a phenomenon associated with radar signature.
Stealth is a new phenomenon.
Stealth cannot be countered.
Stealth carries no penalties.
Stealth makes platforms invisible to radar.
Stealth is passive.
More than radar signature

Is radar signature the only aspect of a platform's observability to which stealth techniques can be applied? No, it may be the most important, but it is still only one aspect. All aspects must be addressed if real stealth is to be achieved. There are other aspects of the observability spectrum that are terribly important as well; they include infrared, acoustic, optical, magnetic, electromagnetic and probably others that include fluid wake effects.

? Infrared. Objects passing through a fluid medium generate heat, by virtue of the medium passing over the object's surfaces. This heating is detectable. For an airplane, surface heating occurs in the 8- to 12-micron range of the infrared spectrum. Thus, an existing infrared search-and-track system (IRST) designed for installation in a fighter-interceptor could detect a high-altitude, supersonic bomber at a distance of several hundred miles.

Platforms that develop propulsion through internal-combustion powerplants generate heat that causes their engine and exhaust systems to be detectable in the 3- to 5-micron range. For over 30 years, airborne IRST systems in fighter airplanes have been able to detect another fighter in afterburner at distances of more than 30 miles. IRST systems that operate in the 8- to 12-micron range have enormous potential, especially in the detection of air platforms. When the 8- to 12-micron technology has matured, it may well render moot most other aspects of observability.

? Acoustic. This has been pursued in the field of antisubmarine warfare for over 50 years. Submarines generate acoustic noise with their screws, by their passage through the water and by the sound of their equipment and crews. In the Vietnam War, the U.S. developed and deployed an acoustically stealthy airplane. It was called the "QT-2" (for "quiet airplane"). Even today's drone aircraft employ acoustic stealth.

? Magnetic/electromagnetic. Surface ships and submarines possess enormous magnetic fields because they are made up of thousands of tons of ferrous metal (steel). They also generate an electromagnetic field because of the power-generating machinery on board. These fields are minimized by a process known as "degaussing." For over forty years, antisubmarine aircraft have been targeting submerged submarines by using magnetic anomaly detectors (MAD).

? Wake effects. Submariners have known for years that subs' wakes generate turbulence that can be detected, often for hours after they have passed by. Work in this area has been going on for over 25 years and is still highly classified. However, the same laws of physics apply to airplanes, which also leave a telltale "wake" in the atmosphere.

? Optical. This has been with us ever since spear-throwers discovered the operational benefits of hiding behind trees. Ships wore camouflage paint schemes as early as WW I. It was only in recent years that the pro-active use of lights mounted on and in the airframe could reduce the effects of contrast in tactical airplanes. Using lights in this way had the effect of decreasing the optical detectability of aircraft, since their detectability was directly related to the contrasts in their optical signature against their background. Not surprisingly, F-117s were painted black because they were intended to be deployed exclusively at night.

Much more could be said about the abovementioned aspects, but the point is made. Stealth is not limited to radar.

The optical aspect of observability was saved until last because it is so important. More airplanes have been shot down by enemy gunners using their optical signature than by any other means. That fact will probably not change in the foreseeable future. If this is true, optical stealth should get major emphasis in the design and development of future tactical airplanes.


Stealth is not new

Camouflage is optical stealth in its crudest form. Camouflage has been used in warfare as far back as history has been recorded. The hulls of WW I combat vessels were painted with various shades of camouflage gray to make them hard to see. Airplanes were camouflaged to achieve the same end, but with enemy gunners both in the air and on the ground, the paint schemes had to be a little more sophisticated. Since the sky and the ground have two distinct backgrounds, camouflaging aircraft is more difficult. The principles, however, are the same. The camouflage must make the object blend with the background—just as in nature's classic example of the chameleon.

In WW II, the Luftwaffe put radar-absorbing carbon material in the leading edge of one of its bomber's wings to make acquisition by British radar more difficult. Still later, the U-2 was developed as a stealthy airplane as were the B-1B bomber and the SR-71 reconnaissance airplane. So stealth is not new; not by a long shot—not even radar stealth.


Can stealth be countered?

Yes. Several countries are already hard at work developing counter-stealth technology. Of course, the simplest way to counter radar stealth is to decrease the frequency and thereby increase the wavelength of radar. Regardless of the size of an airplane, it will act as a dipole antenna to a certain radar frequency whose wavelength is a multiple of the airplane's natural radar return. That is why the F-117s were clearly visible to the air-search radar of an old British destroyer on patrol in the Persian Gulf.

The same principle applies to the highly touted B-2 bomber. The laws of physics apply, despite ballyhoo and public relations "smoke and mirrors." The question of designing a search radar with a variable frequency and a spectrum-survey capability has been considered. Unfortunately, such equipment is very expensive to buy as well as labor-intensive to operate. The cost to configure/reconfigure an entire class of ships or model of aircraft would be prohibitive for most users. In the final analysis, all stealth really does is reduce detection range.

Penalties

Are there penalties associated with the use of stealth? Of course there are, and they are enormous!

Most of the penalties fall in the aircraft-performance category. For example, external stores on stealth aircraft had to be eliminated almost entirely. Fuel tanks and weapons suspended from the bottom of the airplane acted like radar corner reflectors; therefore, all weapons and extra fuel had to be carried internally. This had an enormous effect on the design of the airplane and on its "natural" radar signature, and it also produced drag polars that substantially reduced an airframe's maximum speed as well as its ability to turn and to accelerate. During the weapons-release phase, the F-117 has to open its weapons-bay doors. While in this configuration, however briefly, the F-117's radar signature (and, therefore, its vulnerability) increases dramatically. This is one of the most significant penalties of stealth.   Stealth design efforts

? Acoustic. Sound suppression of air vehicles is most concerned with quieting the powerplant. In the case of propeller-driven drones, the effort involves a quiet propeller design and muting the exhaust system. In the case of jet-powered aircraft, the effort focuses on exhaust-gas noise suppression. Sound suppression in submarines is done through external anechoic coatings and by shock-mounting noisy internal equipment such as generators.

? Infrared. For air vehicles, IR emanations in the 3- to 5-micron range are suppressed by using cooling air and shrouding around hot parts of the machine (usually the powerplant). In submarines, IR emanations come principally from fluid efflux, either from powerplant-related operations or jettisoned ship-related products such as garbage and human waste.

? Magnetic stealth. Can only be achieved through degaussing that requires dedicated ship time on a dedicated range. The effects are not always as permanent as intended, and there is no simple fix once the ship is ?in the field.? In aircraft, the problem doesn?t exist simply because of the limitations of magnetic measuring detectors. If the hunter got close enough to a target aircraft to detect its magnetic emanations, the aircraft would be well inside the detection range of other sensors and also the hunter?s own minimum weapons envelope.

? Optical. Aside from what we know about camouflage, the most promising optical stealth technology is that dealing with the elimination of contrast by the use of lighting. In the latter stages of the Vietnam War, serious efforts were made to enhance the combat effectiveness of U.S. tactical aircraft through the medium of optical stealth. The classic example was a ground test conducted at Miramar, California, in which a Phantom II was configured with a series of strategically located white lights. The test showed rather dramatically that when contrast is reduced, so is the optical signature. For a number of reasons, follow-up tests to this initial development effort were never pursued; however, the results of tests conducted a few years ago showed great promise. The drawback of optical stealth is the same proximity problem that faces the magnetic detectors.

? Fluid wake effects. For both aircraft and submarines, the phenomenon of fluid wake effects represents an aspect of observability that could have serious implications. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on whether one is the hunter or the hunted), it represents an enormous technological challenge and is also shrouded in secrecy.
 


Invisible? Only temporarily

An expression from WW II antisubmarine warfare refers to a "flaming datum." This is the location of a burning ship that has been struck by a submarine weapon. The counterattack against the offending submarine uses as a "datum" the location of the burning ship and the time of the attack.

Knowing the submarine's speed and the range of its torpedoes well defines the search area. Most of the more than 700 German U-boats sunk in WW II were destroyed after the flaming datum had been established.
  
When the F-117 opens its weapons bays, it automatically increases its radar signature. The bays are open only for a short time, but it's long enough for enemy radar to get a lock on the fighter's position and allow the enemy to take countermeasures.
 

The moment the F-117 opens its weapons-bay doors is the modern-day equivalent of the flaming datum. Once seen, how-ever briefly, the F-117's presence has been announced. Air defenses, knowing the F-117's speed limitations, can quickly mount a counterstrategy that, given modern weapons systems, can find it and destroy it.

Low altitude isn't the cure

First designed purely for high-altitude operation, the B-2 bomber was modified to operate at lower altitudes. The resulting increase in structural weight and the added weight incurred by the addition of gust-load-alleviation systems has produced a tactical airplane that is ridiculously vulnerable. The B-2's maximum speed at sea level, for example, is so low that virtually any tactical airplane (of Korean War vintage or later) can easily run it into the ground.

Modern tactical aviators have always thought there was a haven at extremely low altitudes and high speeds. When in trouble, it was worthwhile to head for the tall grass during egress from a highly defended target area. Regardless of weapons and platforms, a target going 700 knots at 50 feet off the ground is difficult to shoot down. In the highly touted B-2, we now have a tactical airplane that costs over two billion dollars and is "dead meat" once it has been detected at low altitude. A burst of 20-millimeter gunfire from a Korean War F-86, for example, cannot be affected one iota by all of the multimillion-dollar electronic and electro-optical countermeasures that the B-2 carries. The B-2 is probably the most technology-intensive aircraft ever built. It certainly does not, however, possess the important ingredients of all successful tactical aircraft: survivability and graceful degradation of battle-damaged weapons systems. From a cost-effectiveness standpoint, one should ask what the relative merits might be to have the same interdiction mission attempted by a careful mix of more conventional, less expensive aircraft, including the low-flying, low-tech A-6s of the Persian Gulf War. That is, if we still had any—but that's yet another story.

Radar signatures

B-52 bomber: 60 square meters

 

B-1A bomber:
6 square meters
B-1B bomber:
0.6 square meters


B-2 Stealth bomber:
less than 0.06
square meters An airplane's stealth can be measured by how much radar energy it reflects. Known as "radar cross-section" (RCS), this measurement is determined by the plane's size, shape and material composition. These drawings show how the RCS, measured in square meters, has been progressively reduced through four generations of American bombers.
 


Although the F-22's design employs surface-shaping technologies similar to the B-2's to reduce radar signature, the principal differences between the two airplanes lie in surface coating and active defense systems (courtesy of Lockheed / Martin F-22 team photo via Air Force Magazine).
 
Passive or active stealth

A few words need to be said about the passive aspect of stealth technology: it is not just passive. Unfortunately, the active aspect of stealth is still shrouded in secrecy—especially as it relates to the B-2 program. Suffice it to say that incoming radar energy is "modified" in such a way as to tell the source of the radar that there is no target.


Summary

As tactical aviation approaches its first century, aircraft designers will have to weigh the relative merits and the tradeoffs involved in striking the proper balance between stealth and aircraft performance. The tradeoffs probably won't be exactly the same for unmanned systems, such as a stealthy Tomahawk missile or a reconnaissance drone. Infrared detection systems in the 8- to 12-micron range seem to offer the greatest promise at this juncture. Technology in the development of new theater air-defense systems is advancing in parallel with stealth technology. There is no technical reason to suspect that either will jump substantially ahead of the other.

As a bottom line, it is probably safe to say that there is no such thing as an invisible airplane. And if it isn't invisible, it certainly ought to be equipped to fight its way into and out of a highly defended target area.

 
Quote    Reply

Wingman       7/30/2009 11:27:14 PM
Three visible stealth features on Rafale:
 
Serrated area (airframe, Inlets)
 
48* leading edge sweep.
 
IR Superssion for M88.
 
[linked image]
[linked image] 
[linked image] 
Add to it: S-shaped inlet, M88 vanes, 5th generation core system architecture, PLI radar from day one, even more discreet with RBE2 AESA now in production, intensive use of IR sensors....
[linked image] 
 
 
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Herald12345    Cit and paste from people    7/30/2009 11:40:44 PM
who don't know what they discuss used by the likes of you (who doesn't understand the first thing about aircraft)  makes me bored.
 
Why don't you stop lying, Pierre? 
 
Herald
 
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Herald12345    Follow up.    7/30/2009 11:49:39 PM
Exposed rivets, seam lines and inlet clutter plus a botched shock ramp puts the lie to your ;last post too, Piere. Your own pictures show this. (technical discussion)
 
When are you going to stop lying, Pierre?  (mental health assessment)
 
Herald
 
Quote    Reply

Slim Pickinz    completely oblivious...   7/30/2009 11:55:32 PM

"Rufus
  I know the fanboys here are motivated primarily by national pride and hate the thought that their country is behind the curve on such a key military technology,

 
You might like to think this way, we know better than you do about our aerospacial history and apparently yours occasionaly."
 
 
Wingman, you just unknowingly cofirmed Rufus's statement with this particular comeback. There's your inflamed national pride and  unjustified sense of superiority right there. How do you know better? Just because? How is your level of knowledge superior to all the other posters on here, especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?
 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale, while you (and you too BW) ignorantly continue to repost your untrue or overexaggerated claims about the aircraft's capabilities, it becomes pretty obvious to see the true facts. And especially when you consider yourselves The One And Only Truth when it comes to the Rafale, even among people experienced in the field who REALLY DO know more than you will ever glean from the public realm.
 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent. Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exhange ratio, and even worse vs F-22 or F-35.
 
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.
 
Slim
 
Quote    Reply

Slim Pickinz    completely oblivious...   7/31/2009 12:15:19 AM

"Rufus
  I know the fanboys here are motivated primarily by national pride and hate the thought that their country is behind the curve on such a key military technology,

 
You might like to think this way, we know better than you do about our aerospacial history and apparently yours occasionaly."
 
 
Wingman, you just unknowingly cofirmed Rufus's statement with this particular comeback. There's your inflamed national pride and  unjustified sense of superiority right there. How do you know better? Just because? How is your level of knowledge superior to all the other posters on here, especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?
 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale, while you (and you too BW) ignorantly continue to repost your untrue or overexaggerated claims about the aircraft's capabilities, it becomes pretty obvious to see the true facts. And especially when you consider yourselves The One And Only Truth when it comes to the Rafale, even among people experienced in the field who REALLY DO know more than you will ever glean from the public realm.
 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent. Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exhange ratio, and even worse vs F-22 or F-35.
 
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.
 
Slim
 
Quote    Reply

Slim Pickinz    completely oblivious...   7/31/2009 12:30:42 AM

"Rufus
  I know the fanboys here are motivated primarily by national pride and hate the thought that their country is behind the curve on such a key military technology,

 
You might like to think this way, we know better than you do about our aerospacial history and apparently yours occasionaly."
 
 
Wingman, you just unknowingly cofirmed Rufus's statement with this particular comeback. There's your inflamed national pride and  unjustified sense of superiority right there. How do you know better? Just because? How is your level of knowledge superior to all the other posters on here, especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?
 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale, while you (and you too BW) ignorantly continue to repost your untrue or overexaggerated claims about the aircraft's capabilities, it becomes pretty obvious to see the true facts. And especially when you consider yourselves The One And Only Truth when it comes to the Rafale, even among people experienced in the field who REALLY DO know more than you will ever glean from the public realm.
 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent. Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exhange ratio, and even worse vs F-22 or F-35.
 
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.
 
Slim
 
Quote    Reply

Slim Pickinz    completely oblivious...   7/31/2009 12:49:19 AM

"Rufus
  I know the fanboys here are motivated primarily by national pride and hate the thought that their country is behind the curve on such a key military technology,

 
You might like to think this way, we know better than you do about our aerospacial history and apparently yours occasionaly."
 
 
Wingman, you just unknowingly cofirmed Rufus's statement with this particular comeback. There's your inflamed national pride and  unjustified sense of superiority right there. How do you know better? Just because? How is your level of knowledge superior to all the other posters on here, especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?
 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale, while you (and you too BW) ignorantly continue to repost your untrue or overexaggerated claims about the aircraft's capabilities, it becomes pretty obvious to see the true facts. And especially when you consider yourselves The One And Only Truth when it comes to the Rafale, even among people experienced in the field who REALLY DO know more than you will ever glean from the public realm.
 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent. Any hypothetical combat scenarios where Rafales engaging on even terms with Typhoons, Super Hornets, Gripens, SU-30MKI/35 would most likely result in a 1:1 exhange ratio, and even worse vs F-22 or F-35.
 
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.
 
Slim
 
Quote    Reply

Rufus       7/31/2009 2:27:19 AM
Wingman, there are far too many errors in your recent post for me to spend the time required to correct them.
 
If your intention was to supply an impossibly large supply of fantasy material in the hope that some of it would slip through unchallenged... well then I guess you succeeded, though to what end I can only guess.
 
That said:
 
"First of all design are mostly evolutionary and the US scool of aircraft design have a long history of using twin fins INCLUDING for non L.O aircrafts, i.e. the YF-17 and F-18."
 
Oh? Then it should be easy to find a foreign concept with a big vertical tail right?
 
Since you clearly know of such examples I will let you supply them. 
 
We are all waiting   ;-P
 
 
"A S-shapped inlet glove and vanes features on its structural airframe and engine design are not ADD-ON plug and play features."
 
Oh there was some minimal effort made.  As I said before there was an awareness outside the US that it was possible to reduce the RCS of aircraft.  The Rafale did ultimately receive some measures to that end, but they were extremely limited.
 
"This is a LIE.

  At Roll out of the Rafale C or D for Discreet, the EM and IR reduction work was obvious and already well advertised, nothing to do with marketing, what you are doing is called revisonism."

 

Gee, you don't think trying to advertise the plan that way had something to do with marketing?  lol
 
I give the French credit for knowing how to market a plane, the problem is that their marketers appear to know more about what customers are looking for than their engineers.  This entire effort to cling to the term "discrete" is just silly. 
 
What is discrete? 
 
A totally conventional 4th generation aircraft, with a modest effort at RCS reduction... but from France!
 
"F-18 design in no stealthier than that of a Mirage 2000, the twin fin feature is an aerodynamic arrangement inherited from YF-17, NOT a stealthy design."
 
Where did I say it was?  I never said that simply HAVING a canted tail meant that an aircraft was stealthy, only that no aircraft with significant RCS reduction work would have a vertical tail.  You can't turn around people's statements and pretend they work both ways.  It is true how I said it.
 
 
"The race for stealth was ON long before ATF was launched in 1983 even in Europe, the principles of radar reduction features are known since the invention radar and use of large Karman wing-fuselage junctions."
 
lol, "race for stealth."
 
If that were true it would be pretty pathetic.  The US has been flying stealth aircraft for over 30 years now, some race...
 
Give your engineers some credit, if there had in fact been a "race for stealth" they would have produced something useful by now.  
 
There is no doubt other states were aware of the potential for stealth aircraft, I stated that already.  There is also no question that it is only in the US that that potential was aggressively explored.  Europe tinkered with conventional designs, while the US built multiple generations of fully operational stealth aircraft.  (as well as numerous full scale demonstrators, experimental designs and prototypes)
 
As I said before.  I get that it offends your national pride to find out your country was behind the curve on something, but facts are facts.  The US is the only country in the world that has demonstrated mastery of stealth design and nobody else has even come close. 
 
"They did have the technology to design a L.O aircraft as RAND describes today"
 
That Rand report, as I already explained to you, is not even attempting to officially define terms.  It made arbitrary distinctions between aircraft for the purpose of keeping things simple for the reader.  They explained that quite clearly.
 
Even IF it had been their intention to define levels of RCS reduction and rank aircraft... Rand is in no way "official."  They are a third party group that produces commissioned studies.
 
Your continued misuse of this report says a lot about your level of honesty in this dicussion.
 
"Nobody was taken by surprise, i dont know which year you were born but Europe simply didn't chose to invest in the technology at the time, focusing on what was more urgent (Engines and radars in France)."
 
Now you are trying to reinvent history.  Your pride is a heck of a lot bigger than  your knowledge wingman.   The F-117's emergence will forever mark one of the key turning points in aviation history, arguably the largest in the last third of the 20th century.  Suddenly, a completely new way of aerial combat had come into being with a completely new type of aircraft.  The Russians were terrified, most of the rest of the world was simply shocked.  No aviation timeline will ever omit the emergence of the F-117, as it was an absolutely revolutionary jet.
 
"You might like to think this way, we know better than you do about our aerospacial history and apparently yours occasionaly."
 
No, you really don't. You mostly seem to be here to promote a kind of alternate universe...
 
"If you have to deny your own offical RAND work on defining levels of obvservability to make your point"
 
lol 
 
Rand is not "official."  
 
That report was not "work on defining levels of observability."
 
That report clearly stated that those categories were notional, arbitrary, and absolutely not intended to be used in the way you seem to want to use them.
 
That is why they wrote that disclaimer, to say what it was that they WEREN'T doing, so that idiots wouldn't get the wrong idea.  It doesn't seem to have worked.
 
"For your information the Electronic Warfare Center and Squadron based in Saint Dizier is developing the next generation of towed decoy for the RAF."
 
So? The Rafale doesn't have it now.  This is one of the areas in which it is deficient.  Just like the lack of a helmet mounted sight, targetting pod, etc etc.   Sooner or later it will likely receive these features.
 
"SPECTRA doesn't NEED a towed decoy, it never did, it was designed to be effiscient enough to do without one and it is a advanced as the ECM suite developed by BAe for F-22 and F-35, Thales are the reconised ECM european premier specialists, NOT BAe who developed US fighters ECMs."
 
Lol, correcting this could be a multi-page post in itself...
 

 
 
Quote    Reply

Slim Pickinz    oops   7/31/2009 2:28:26 AM

 stupid website design. sorry about the multi-post, my bad.

 
Quote    Reply

Wingman       7/31/2009 6:47:51 AM

Slim Pickinz   
especially the ones with civilian and military experience directly in the current topic of debate?

  Well when i will read something noticeable for being not only level but accurate i'll let you know, you have no idea wehat my experience is, pretending is one thing, i'm still waiting for you to demonstrate otherwise than by calling people names and flaming...

 
Slim Pickinz 
So when 90% of us on SP disagree with your illogical assertions about the Rafale,

  That's 90% of you pretending to know about it then.



Slim Pickinz 
Yes, the Rafale is a very capable 4.5th gen fighter. Yes, it is one of the best platforms out there in its class. But it is not somehow going to sweep the legs of any of similar opponent.

  For your info it  already does, the fact tha tyou don't know it yet is another issue...

 

Slim Pickinz
 I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Backed up with hundreds of pages of comments on the subject.

 You dont, you just indicated that you are still unaware, next time you have the opportunity, ask one of the Rafale pilots  what they think of them.

>>>>>


Rufus  
Wingman, there are far too many errors in your recent post for me to spend the time required to correct them.

  Please DO because you keep writing and prove little...

 
 Rufus
Oh? Then it should be easy to find a foreign concept with a big vertical tail right?
 
   You should READ the history of Typhoon before writing, the FACT is the twin fins are an aerodynamic feature ported to L.O after it was already adopted by the US designers before even thinking of stealth. 
 
 Rufus
Oh there was some minimal effort made.

 This is certainly NOT a minimal effort.

 Had you known your basics you would comprehend the FACT that a straight inlet have a better pressure recovery characteristic than a curved one, there also are resonance issues created in the S-shapes due to the high transonic airflow.

  If the compressor blades have to stay subsonic, it doesn't mean that compressive waves doesn't occur in the inlets expecially when they are of this type; Pitot, since it have to happen to slow down the airflow before it reaches the compressor blades.

  This, with only a diffuser to provoc a mild shock on their leading edge, making the 1.5 shock, which helps and give a 0.2 Mach margin.

  The presence of S-shaped glove requieres a high degree of computation too.

  As a matter of FACT, Typhoon designers didn't have CATIA nor ONERA and Saint Cyr advanced aerodynamic simulation and tunneling facilities to help them with this, and Typhoon suffers from high-frequency vibrations due to a marginal inlet design.

  You totaly forget that aerodynamics doesn't suffer approximation and in the case of US twin fin design it shows big time.

 

 Rufus
  As I said before there was an awareness outside the US that it was possible to reduce the RCS of aircraft.  The Rafale did ultimately receive some measures to that end, but they were extremely limited.

  Not ultimately, but well before DESIGN STAGE.

  And more to the point, there are feature there that you keep ignoring and are well known to reduce RCS, it's all a matter  of compromise and even US V.L.O fighters does compromise.

  F/A-18 is designed angularly like the F-22, Rafale uses souple curves like YF-23, from the from it shares a very similar cross section, similar to B2, nEUROn or XB-47.

  Aerodynamics have their own characteristics, since even radar wave are responding to air (radar waves are also MTO dependent although not by a high degree), it is normal that some aerodynamic features will have a repercusion in radar return.

  Since the invention of radar, the Karman wing/fuselage junction is known to reduce radar return, so does the mid-fuselage mounted wing.

  Associated with a leading edge sweep as close as possible to 45* this gives a pretty good characteristic of radar return to Rafale from side like from the frontal area.
 
  You came up with the single fin "No No" forgeting that all leading and trailing edges on YF-23 were 45* and that visibly the 30* or so of F/A-18 and 35* of F-35 are FAR from this angle, when Rafale is much closer to the both canards and wing.

  The single fin is for this type of aircraft, a compromise to aerodynamics, performances and cost, it was chosen over the twin fin configuration from 1982 in order to save weight and reduce cost.

  The Eurofighter designers did the same from BAE P-110 and P-120 to Herbst's TFK-90 for exactly the SAME reasons.
  US designers uses the twin fin in an atempt to improve Yaw characteristic and level of control at high AoAs.
 
   They can't depart from their conventional design solutions and have a very hard time keeping their vortexes under control.
 
   From F-18 to F-35 they always encountered the SAME aerodynamic problems due to the SAME aerodynamic design, showing the old SAME aerodynmamic characteristic for "destructive" vortex at high AoA.
 
    That is, since 1975, little progress was made at this level, the very same problem was ported to F-35 last design revue.
 
   Rafale uses much more developed boundary layer control and vortex posisioning in particular it does away with strakes using a fully integrated canard design when even Gripen doesn't (Strakes) and Typhoon even less.
 
   The vortexes from the canard root and tips are combining with those of the LEX to provide an inprecedented level of control on all axis at AoA where all US aircrafts are limited, much earlier than 50% of the value seen on Rafale.
 
   When F-22 will reach 100*+ AoA and -40 kt  speed without TVC without departing, come back and tell us the USA have demonstrated as good aerodynamics as Dassault designers...
 
   For the time being, the Rafale can easly out-turn anything when staying in the best part of its flight envelop, and YES display pilots routinely pull 11.0 g when they are going for it, the aircraft can easly take it, sao doers the Mirage 2000 although to a much lower extend.
 
  Without TVC, US aircrafts are AoA limited in a way even a Mirage 2000 is not, for your info, during flight testing, Rafale was flown at speed as low as 15 kt during an excursion into exptreme AoAs in simulated combat vs a Mirage 2000, try to emulate this on aerodynamics only with ANY US design, even the X-31 can't come close.

  
 
 Rufus
Gee, you don't think trying to advertise the plan that way had something to do with marketing?  lol

  NO it was never what you implied it was; the design of Rafale C01 was a step further to lowering the overal signature of the aircraft but it was aerodynamics which dictated the amount of L.O features in it as for the level of advertising, look at the F-35 PR team extreme noises and you can compare any time to that made by Dassault.
  You guys can't even comprehend the meaning of "Aerodynamique Like" as for internal weapon bay vs external in A2G configuration, somethingh else, have you ever seen a Chase- F-16 in "Clean" configuration?...
 
  NO they always are equiped with external tanks so let me know when they forgot to teach you at the Air-Force specialist Training School that combat weight in A2A was computed with 50% internal and tanks-free?
 
   No one at Dassault pretends Rafale is a V.L.O aircraft it visibly isn't but it always was meant to be an air-superiority fighter because ACX requierements were in majority for the A2A role, in fact 4 out of 6 major design goals were for A2A optimisation, as for signature management it was always there as a goal and designed features are not only there, they also are a lot more numerous than on ANY other fighter of its "generation".

  = From F-404 to M88 the difference in IR signature is enormous.

   Then there was the little matter of the RAM paint used on C01, it was further developed with visual stealth in mind.

  The features such as serrated area and RAM are not an after thaught they need to be developed in an anechoidal chamber for optimisation in particular their position on the airframe, which is what they did.

 

 Rufus
I give the French credit for knowing how to market a plane,

  When we see all the fantasise we can read about F-35 we think we're just amateurs because you see, trying to pass this for a dogfighter or an Air Superiority fighter takes some degree of mickey taking, and then some, only a simple look at its design features and aerodynamics tells me it is FAR from being that performant in this role...


  
 
 Rufus
A totally conventional 4th generation aircraft, with a modest effort at RCS reduction... but from France!

  Totaly conventional? LOL!

  This is Dwight Looi lowest possible level of analysis...

  If you knew your aeros (he don't), and a little more about stealth you wouldn't be calling Rafale conventional but advanced.

  Please elaborate (if you can).

 

 Rufus
Where did I say it was?  I never said that simply HAVING a canted tail meant that an aircraft was stealthy, only that no aircraft with significant RCS reduction work would have a vertical tail.  You can't turn around people's statements and pretend they work both ways.  It is true how I said it.

  You IMPLY that the twin tail is a stealth feature which it is not, the stealthier solution is a 45* V tailevon as featured by the YF-23. 
  Even F-22 compromises in this area and this is why it is known that YF-23 had a lower RCS, it was the one with the lowest level of compromise to pure aerodynamics.

 

 
 Rufus
If that were true it would be pretty pathetic.  The US has been flying stealth aircraft for over 30 years now, some race... 
 
  None of them had the degree of stealth of F-22 and NOW F-35 itself have NOWHERE near the low RCS of the Raptor, hence the nEUROn partners capable of developing something with an equivelent RCS at much lower cost.

  U2 and F-12 and SR-71 were perfectly detectable by radar BOTH ground based and airborne, the Russian never had any problems intercepting them.

 

 Rufus
Give your engineers some credit, if there had in fact been a "race for stealth" they would have produced something useful by now.

  They did you simply chose to ignore it.

  
 Rufus
 Europe tinkered with conventional designs, while the US built multiple generations of fully operational stealth aircraft.

 Correction here: The only fully operational stealth aircraft the US built was the F-117, the rest were still not in the same ballpark.

  As for SR-71 it was more of a prototype built in a slightly larger number.

  Europe priority, at least that of France was in developing its basic and then more advanced technologies, stealth technologies were ready at Dassault-Aviation for a full scale UCAV as early as 2003.

  This was the sole reason for DGA to give the budget to them first for the Grand Duc programe, then look for European partners after Michelle Aliot-Marie decided to open it to them after an agreement at Eurosatory between Dassault and EADS, on UAV/UCAV partnership.

  This is our history boys, and it is well advertised by the Europpean press, go and dig it.

 
 Rufus
As I said before.  I get that it offends your national pride...

  The fact that you can come up with this tells me a lot on how much of an aviation enthusiast you are, i got comments on Rafale from some US test-pilots which contrasts with yours in many ways.

  First they know what they are talking about, no disrespect, then they appreciate design features for what they are regardless of nationality.

  Endly they all well complimentary of Rafale design and none would dare using the word conventional, quiet the contrary.

  Now if you have any number of flight hours in aircrafts such as the Tiger II or F/A-18s i'd listen to you opinion but at the way you write about it i think you don't even fly a paraglider... Sorry. 

 

 
 Rufus 
That Rand report, as I already explained to you, is not even attempting to officially define terms.  It made arbitrary distinctions between aircraft for the purpose of keeping things simple for the reader.  They explained that quite clearly.

 Yes they did and design features still eludes you.

 

 
 Rufus
Even IF it had been their intention to define levels of RCS reduction and rank aircraft... Rand is in no way "official."  They are a third party group that produces commissioned studies.

  Commisioned on the ground of their capabilties on behalf of the US Air Force, vs your opinion i know what to believe, more to it in this same report it is clear that they also mention systems and as the last article i posted, the notion of Observability goes further than just EM signature management.

  This report was published one year before the contract for AN/APG-79 was signed, meaning that the F/A-18 they mentions as R.O wasn't full equiped with what ALSO makes a F-22 V.L.O today, a LPI radar worth mentioning.

 
 Rufus
Your continued misuse of this report says a lot about your level of honesty in this dicussion.
 
 
  Speak for yourself.


 Rufus
Now you are trying to reinvent history.

  This is your forumers habbit, not mine.

  I know my aerospacial history and YES Frnace did have to rebuild her aerospacial industry and not only it, ALL her industries after WWII...

 


 Rufus
  Your pride is a heck of a lot bigger than  your knowledge wingman.

  Im afraid you mystake me for one of your other forumers here...

 

 Rufus
   The F-117's emergence will forever mark one of the key turning points in aviation history.

  So dont come up with U2 and SR-71 as "stealth", they had various degree of radar signature developed in them but certainly not that of YF-117...

 
  Rufus
No, you really don't. You mostly seem to be here to promote a kind of alternate universe...

  Alternative thinking based on knowlege of FACT surely, please inform yourself, technologies in Europe aren't developed backward.
 

  Rufus
 Rand is not "official." 

  Their work IS it is sponsored for the USAF with USAF and USN datas, which is more than you can claim for yourself.

 

 Rufus 
That report was not "work on defining levels of observability."

  But it DID and to an extend showing that my points were perfectly valid...

 

 Rufus 
That report clearly stated that those categories were notional.

  The only reason they were is because the subject is still classified so trying to imply it is not a base from which we can make reasonable assumptions is wrong...

 The  quoted ALL the features making V.L.O and L.O and as a matter of FACT most of them are in the explaination i given along my previous posts.

  
 Rufus
That is why they wrote that disclaimer.

  NO; the disclaimer is there to indicate that they did so because they canot disclose more sensitive informations to the public, not that they are not doing a good job of categorising the aircraft they mention.

  This RAND repport is WAY more specific than yourself, you keep bringing the stealth issue to V.L.O only and EM signature management only, this is plain wrong.

 
 Rufus
So? The Rafale doesn't have it now.

  SO?
  IT is designed for the Tornados and as far as i know nor F-22 nor F-35 have it either, considering that it is BAe who designs and develops their ECMs i wouldn't dare assuming they do a much better job than Thales France in i were you...

 

 Rufus
Lol, correcting this could be a multi-page post in itself...

  LOL!

  Please fell FREE to write, what i can see is that you have no clue and i have tons of archives to throw at you guys...

 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    What an ignorant poster.   7/31/2009 7:07:46 AM
Twin vertical stabilizers offer better yaw control for size of control surface.......

Here, poster.
 
 
 

 
I would also point out that the British have forgotten more about aerodynamics than the French ever learned, but why bother. Just the Harrier proves the British had and have more on the ball than the buffoons of Dassault.
 
But then so does Saab, Finmeccanica, .... and Sukhoi........


 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Y. pestis    France's early LO (discrete) Designs   7/31/2009 9:46:09 AM
France has been working on LO for quite some time.
Note the reliance on radar absorbing material
Twin tails
S Shaped prop
 
Please note this design has 4 vertical tails (2X better than 2)
 
 
....
Sorry couldn't help myself.
French posters -please take this as just a jest not an attempt to flame.
I actually think the Rafale is a beautiful plane regardless of the tech talk going on.
 
Quote    Reply

Rufus       7/31/2009 12:04:35 PM
My you seem eager to make an utter and complete fool of yourself...
 
 "You should READ the history of Typhoon before writing, the FACT is the twin fins are an aerodynamic feature ported to L.O after it was already adopted by the US designers before even thinking of stealth. "
 
A childish lie... requiring no rebutal
 
"This is certainly NOT a minimal effort."
 
By the standards of reduced RCS aircraft it absolutely is.  The small amount of shaping and 'S' shaped inlets incorporated into the Rafale are a classic example of a "low hanging fruit" approach to RCS reduction.  The engineers identified several of the easiest steps they could take with the most meaningful improvement available and took them.  That was the extent of their efforts.  That is why the Rafale kept its vertical tail, fixed refueling probe, canards, etc.  None of these things would have remained if a serious effort had been made.
 
"From F-18 to F-35 they always encountered the SAME aerodynamic problems due to the SAME aerodynamic design, showing the old SAME aerodynmamic characteristic for "destructive" vortex at high AoA."
 
Another childish lie requiring no rebutal.  The F-18 is in service in a number of countries and has been for a long time.  Where you heard this fantasy is a mystery to me, but then much of what you try to pass off as fact is at best grossly misunderstood.
 
"For the time being, the Rafale can easly out-turn anything when staying in the best part of its flight envelop blah blah blah"
 
I am not going to discuss aerobatics displays with someone of your limited intellectual capacity.  The Rafale, like any fighter, has areas of strength and weakness.  It is a maneuverable plane, but the maneuverability of all 4th generation aircraft has reached the point where it is virtually impossible to gain a meaningful advantage through increased maneuverability anymore.  Helmet mounted sights and long range weapons have rendered "dogfighting" largely obsolete.  If/when WVR combat occurs between two late 4th generation aircraft it will be very short, as one or both will be able to take a high Pk shot almost immediately.
 
"When we see all the fantasise we can read about F-35 we think we're just amateurs because you see, trying to pass this for a dogfighter or an Air Superiority fighter takes some degree of mickey taking, and then some, only a simple look at its design features and aerodynamics tells me it is FAR from being that performant in this role..."
 
LOL, you really really don't want to bring the F-35 into this.  The F-35 is the plane you fanboys WISH the Rafale was. 
 
It has the world's most capable ECM suite, it has the world's most capable IRST, it has DAS, it has the world's most capable sensor fusion and man-machine interface, it has the world's most capable helmet mounted sight/display,  it has the world's most capable AESA radar, it is STEALTH, and it has numerous first-tier countries lining up to buy it.  To top it all off, the F-35 gives up nothing in speed or maneuverability to 4th generation aircraft when carrying a useful load, not that it will need to do anything so plebeian as actually point its nose at something it wants to kill...
 
"Totaly conventional? LOL!"
 
Yep... It is a totally typical design for its era, a very conservative choice on the part of its designers.
 
"You IMPLY that the twin tail is a stealth feature which it is not"
 
What I TOLD YOU, not implied, is that no aircraft that has received significant RCS reduction will have a vertical tail.
 
There are multiple ways to avoid a vertical tail a canted tail is one possibility, as are tailess designs.
 
"Even F-22 compromises in this area and this is why it is known that YF-23 had a lower RCS, it was the one with the lowest level of compromise to pure aerodynamics."
 
You have no clue what you are talking about.  France would probably trade their aircraft carrier to get their hands on the YF-23 prototype and see how it worked...
 
"None of them had the degree of stealth of F-22 and NOW F-35 itself have NOWHERE near the low RCS of the Raptor, hence the nEUROn partners capable of developing something with an equivelent RCS at much lower cost."
 
Another of your fanboy claims... Neuron is barely getting started and you are already claiming it will match the F-35's RCS at lower cost? We both know that you don't have a clue what the F-35's RCS is, nor do you have a clue what level of RCS is being targetted by the Neuron program.
 
Naturally as a fanboy you assume the very very best since it is coming from your home.
 
" U2 and F-12 and SR-71 were perfectly detectable by radar BOTH ground based and airborne, the Russian never had any problems intercepting them."
 
Who the heck brought up the U2? 
 
For that matter, what the heck does intercepting the SR-71 have to do with this discussion? 
 
While I am at it...  when the hell did the Russians ever intercept an "F-12?"  That design never even went into production, you do realize that don't you?
 
Why do you keep brining up random crap that has nothing to do with anything?
 
The SR-71 received some RCS reduction work, but it was not a stealth plane.  It was however the finest aircraft of its type for decades.
 
 
"They did you simply chose to ignore it."
 
Uh huh, they raced for stealth... and built the Rafale?  LOL I guess they lost huh?
 
"Correction here: The only fully operational stealth aircraft the US built was the F-117, the rest were still not in the same ballpark."
 
So the B-2 and F-22 somehow don't count?  Both are stealthier than the F-117 and both are very much operational.
 
"As for SR-71 it was more of a prototype built in a slightly larger number."
 
Again, what does the SR-71 have to do with this discussion?  The SR-71 was absolutely not a "prototype built in slightly larger number."  The SR-71 was operational for decades, including hundreds of combat missions and tens of thousands of total flight hours.  Now you are just being an idiot.
 
"Commisioned on the ground of their capabilties on behalf of the US Air Force, vs your opinion i know what to believe"
 
You are really struggling to figure this one out aren't you? 
 
Just because the Air Force commissioned a report doesn't mean it is "official."  Rand is a research company, and that report isn't even about defining levels of stealth or anything similar.  You just happened to see a report that makes an arbitrary distinction, and explains clearly that is what it is, but you insist in trying to make it say something it doesn't.
 
"So dont come up with U2 and SR-71 as "stealth", they had various degree of radar signature developed in them but certainly not that of YF-117..."
 
WTF?  Once again... where the hell did you come up with the U2?  For that matter, I never said the SR-71 was stealth, only that it had received some amount of RCS reduction.  Call it Discrete if you like ;P
 

"lease fell FREE to write, what i can see is that you have no clue and i have tons of archives to throw at you guys..."
 
Uh huh... why don't I doubt that you believe it... lol
 
 
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