2009 displays of the F-22 and the Rafale

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Bluewings12 7/19/2009 8:25:34 PM

Beazz , that doesn 't mean anything and you know it .

Let 's talk about something more relevant please .

Cheers .

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gf0012-aust 7/19/2009 8:32:15 PM

I have this overwhelming urge to poke out my eyes with a knitting needle...

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Reactive 10 Questions 7/19/2009 8:37:21 PM

Reactive :

""You've never known jack about the rafail""

That 's true , I don 't know this aircraft . Who 's building it ? Where is it from ?

But if you know a French aircraft named the Rafale , I can propose you a game , or to put it better a quiz .

I ask you 10 questions about the Rafale and the responses will be simple : yes , no or a number .

You do the same with me , you ask me 10 questions about the Rafale .

Then , we 'll see who knows best . If you agree you play , I 'll give you an Email to contact me and start the quiz .

Ok ?

Cheers .

Why is the rafale underpowered in current form?

Why does the rafale have an underpowered radar?

Why is the rafale yet to be purchased by any other country?

Why does the rafale not supercruise?

Why is the operational ceiling of the rafale 10 000 feet less than the F22/Typhoon?

Why does the rafale have exposed rivets?

Do exposed rivets and panel-seams have implications for the RCS of the rafale?

Is there any correlation between your love of Rafale and your nationality?

Do you believe truck-drivers are qualified to offer analyses of the potency of A2A platforms?

Do you accept that your views on the rafale are those of an enthusiast, rather than an objective viewpoint from an expert, does your lack of relevant experience/knowledge/training in this area limit your ability to discriminate between systems?

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Bluewings12 7/19/2009 9:37:59 PM

-1) Why is the rafale underpowered in current form ?

It is not , the AdA and MN are perfectly happy with the actual engines . During the many foreign evaluations , nobody but the UAE asked for a 9.5tons thrust engine . Since you ask , the reason is that the UAE wanted to be able to carry 3 Apaches/Scalp missiles instead of 2 with the usual fuel and missile load and in hot weather . This is a scoop .

-2) Why does the rafale have an underpowered radar ?

150+ km range against a 3m square target is not underpowered , it is a bit short . It has a smaller range than some other AESA radars because its output power is average .

-3) Why is the rafale yet to be purchased by any other country ?

Because France and Dassault never worked with each other . The proposed deals (so far) have been average and expensive .

-4) Why does the rafale not supercruise ?

Because it is not designed for . The reasons are two fold : aerodynamics only designed for good supersonic flight and lack of thrust at high altitude .

The jet did supercruise with a central fuel tanks and 4 Micas over France because the weather was helping . A constant speed of Mach 1.2 was demonstrated .

-5) Why is the operational ceiling of the rafale 10 000 feet less than the F22/Typhoon ?

For the same reasons I ' ve just explained : it is not build to be an Interceptor but an Omnirole Fighter . It still fly higher than the SH , Eagles , Vipers , Migs .

-6) Why does the rafale have exposed rivets ?

This is a forum legend . Any close picture from the airframe on Rafale F2s and F3s shows an improvement on the Raf F1, do you want to see some ? Since you wanna talk about RCS , let me just tell you that the SH , the Gripen and the Typhoon are not in the same league . Apparently , a Rafale F3 can detect a Typhoon 50km earlier than it can detect another Rafale F3 , this is coming from a Rafale Pilot (probably from the 12-F Squadron) .

-7) Do exposed rivets and panel-seams have implications for the RCS of the rafale ?

Of course , but the Raf F2s and 3s are better in this regard .

-8) Is there any correlation between your love of Rafale and your nationality ?

Yes .

-9) Do you believe truck-drivers are qualified to offer analyses of the potency of A2A platforms ?

When they know what I do or more , yes .

-10) Do you accept that your views on the rafale are those of an enthusiast, rather than an objective viewpoint from an expert, does your lack of relevant experience/knowledge/training in this area limit your ability to discriminate between systems ?

a) I don 't . I know what I am talking about .

b) Maybe but I do my best to try to fully understand what I 'm reading and earing .

Cheers .

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Beazz 7/19/2009 10:37:56 PM

You already know the answer Beazz : a bit over 1000MIPS as it stands .

And as it stands , your best is 723MIPS .

Cheers .

Flat out LIE BW. As is being *used* on the F22 is that ~723 x 2 (TWO) goofball which is clsoer to ~1450. Docs show in plain english each of those TWO can be increased to 2000 by simply plug and go and a 3rd also is ready to be installed for an additional 2000 any time the USAF so desires it.

Watching you wiggle and squirm is more fun then I ever dreamed!

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Beazz 7/19/2009 10:46:51 PM

Beazz , that doesn 't mean anything and you know it .

Let 's talk about something more relevant please .

Cheers .

LOL.. uh huh.. the power that runs the brains behind the entire electronics means nothing all the sudden huh BW? That's why your fav plane is a over rated tonka toy and the F22 is the real deal. Nice to see you roll over and admit utter defeat in the elctronics arena. Your tonka toy cannot run what it cannot power and it obviously cannot power much. I don't blame ya, I'd wanna move on to something else to. Something that real numbers are not available to shoot holes in your toy plane.

Still wanna see links to where it even has the 1000 you claim and the *possibility* you claim of uping it to 2000................. as well as a link showing how man Billion Operations Per Second??????? Or is it in the case of the rafail MOPS? lol No wonder you wsih to move on to something *more relevant* then what makes the entire plane work!!

Now back to your usual gobbly gook BS...

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Das Kardinal 7/19/2009 11:04:05 PM

The "overrated tonka toy" consistently received praise from foreign pilots for its superior MMI and sensor fusion. Yeah, I'm sure it must have the processing power of a 1992 Game Boy to achieve that. *rolleyes*

BW's biased in one way, but you sure are biased all the opposite way as well.

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gf0012-aust 7/20/2009 1:02:29 AM

-6) Why does the rafale have exposed rivets ?

This is a forum legend .

FFS, it was either you or FS that posted the damn pictures to counter a discussion about raised profiles and sawtoothing issues. You tried to argue that the sawtoothing was an example of radar emissions manaagement when the whole point was that the panel fit and form was incredibly crude compared to late model american aircraft. So, in point, what a load of crock. You can't even remember your own posts. I posted references from a radar engineers book to reinforce how raised rivets and poor panel fit would escalate a return signal - this is when you again BS'd to try and defvend your claims. I then also backed it up with references and citations from F-117 pilots and technicians who discussed how poor panel fit would bounce a higher signal and present the plane. You're so used to lying that you can't even remember what you've posted.

and don't try a new spin by asking me to point it out - Darth posted the same images again not just 2 months ago. - every man and his dog has seen your feeble attempts to weasel out of being a technical luddite.

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gf0012-aust 7/20/2009 1:12:03 AM

One of my response to you dated 15th Sept 2008:

Give Darth enough time and he'll drag out your idiotic responses to panel fit re the photos as well.

Bluewings > First (just to make things clear) , it is a legend that a radar can see a screw or a bolt at 10km , so at 60nm and over ...

gf0012-aust > seeing that you have decided that you want to attack my knowledge base and question my competency, then perhaps you can go out and do some additional research yourself.

here's a tip from "The Radar Game, Understanding Stealth Aircraft and Survivability"

"Traveling waves create challenges on the shop floor and in future maintenance, too. As one Lockheed F-117 engineer put it, ?we couldn?t allow even the tiniest imperfection in the fit of the landing gear door, for example, that could triple the airplane?s RCS if it wasn?t precisely flush with the body.? Any protrusions, such as small fairings, grills, domes, and wingtips, can project radar waves back to the sender. Even rivets and fasteners can act as radar reflectors."

Cross reference that hilighted line with commentary in "Bandits over Bagdhad" of how the RCS profile was raised when the retractable antennas did not seat fully (and it was discovered that it was akin to being the same profile as a "proud" rivet.)

Now that youn have elected to demonstrate trollish behaviour towards me then I feel no compunction in maintaining civility to you.

ANYONE - and I mean ANYONE who has had any involvement with signature management will tell you how wavelength in aerodynamics is effected by protrusions on an aircraft - the fact that you say it's BS shows that you have absolutely no ferking idea about the subject matter. Make the effort to read about Have Blue, Tacit Blue and Senior Trend and what they discovered about wavelength impact on aircraft surfaces.

If you don't want to listen to people who do actually have an operational clue in signature management - then buy yourself a credible book. Start with:

Introduction to RF Stealth
David Lynch, Jr.
Hardcover, 560 pages
ISBN10: 1891121219
ISBN13: 9781891121210
Publisher: SciTech Publishing,

It's the most useful $80 you'll spend and maybe you'll learn to actually be humble and appreciate that there are a number of people in here who might just know a tad more than you pretend to do.

I leave you to your fantasy of arguing that the rafale is a clean design - esp when everyone saw the image posted of that appalling picture of Rafale saw tooth panelling (where even the seams were bubbling.)

and fyi, just as you don't give a FF about what the RAAF assessment team thinks of Rafale - neither do I give a FF about a plane that has yet to demonstrate autonomous delivery (yes it needs an assist), doesn't have a modern radar system, doesn't have the onboard power, doesn't have a sale even when offered to third world countries at a discounted french govt subsidised rate.

I leave the others to exercise more patience with you - but I am done with you.

If you behave like a troll - you get treated like a troll.

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Herald12345 Irritated...... 7/20/2009 1:46:02 AM

I already demolished you on the IR cooler where you were wrong. Now you compound the error. .

ROTFL. I mean, I demonstrated you didn't even know what type cooler the IR MICA used and you call your show of ignorance a demolishing? I know that according to Napoleon a good offense is the best defense but you're just being delusional here.

No you didn't. You made a claim of what I said and not what I said

You misquoted me and then didn't even know it was built as a too small a chiller for the heat burden expected? I don't think much of you for that.

The MICA antenna is body shadow occluded by its fins and strakes, plus the antenna is the wrong length to cover aspect presentation distortion.

Wrong on the first part, you obviously still haven't checked a picture of MICA tail. Or maybe you just don't know what an antenna looks like, after all you stated in another thread that the MICA data link antenna was located in the missile mid-body... Can't really get more wrong than that.

You refer to this. Midbody means buried and occluded and not in a open fairing.

You were and are deceptive. Its masked by the strakes and fins and buried exactly as I said.

The second part is interesting as we're talking >10GHz links with a half wavelength <15mm (that's roughly half an inch for the metrically impaired). So you're either trolling or you don't even have a basic clue about electromagnetism. Given your record on this thread, I'll go for the second option. Well, it's also possible you're an ignorant troll...

The antenna is not limited to the crest trough of a single wavelength (QM) and you know this, or else its you that doesn't know electromagnetism. The antenna was designed wrong.

Not exactly correct. The aerial has to have a travel length friend.

Not the same (CREF below).

It is exactly the same equation, term for term. It's now obvious you've never designed a regulation system or even followed a basic course on the matter. You try to hide your ignorance of the matter with buzzwords but you simply can't "talk the talk".

No its not the same term for term.

Source....

For one thing, the robot arm is a static mount limited to gimbal and reach; whereas in the three body moving problem all of the objects move independent of each other.

GOLIS versus GOT logics also apply here. You keep confusing endgame with trajectory control!

The robot arm reaches out and grabs a moving object; but it is joint fixed in its space, so it knows its path limits and it knows where the object it grabs or reaches

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